in the description of ''line of effect,'' it says:
Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It's like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it's not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.
so, does this mean i can cast a sleep spell while standing inside an obscuring mist, to an area that i cannot see? or cast a fireball from inside darkness, to a designated spot on the field?
i know you can't aim a spell that requires a target, but for area spells that do not require a target, is it possible to aim a spot on the field that the caster cannot see?
for ranged attacks, attacking someone you can't see but guess, thus attacking the square that you suppose your enemy stands, has %50 miss chance (total concealment). does or should this have anything to do with aiming a spell blindly?
so, does this mean i can cast a sleep spell while standing inside an obscuring mist, to an area that i cannot see? or cast a fireball from inside darkness, to a designated spot on the field?
Yes, as long as you have line of effect to the area.
i know you can't aim a spell that requires a target, but for area spells that do not require a target, is it possible to aim a spot on the field that the caster cannot see?
Yes. Not being able to see something (fog/darkness/blind/invisibility/etc.) is just total concealment. Total concealment isn't total cover.
for ranged attacks, attacking someone you can't see but guess, thus attacking the square that you suppose your enemy stands, has %50 miss chance (total concealment). does or should this have anything to do with aiming a spell blindly?
By the rules no, there's no penalty for selecting the intersection of squares for an area spell to go off on. . . as long as the spell is in range and you have line of effect.
Just out of curiosity, how do you handle glass in your games? Per the rules, a glass window would block line of effect, which might not come up a lot in medievalish games but would cause all sorts of problems in a modern, renaissance, or steampunk game--no charming people through windows, and a wizard would be basically useless while he drives his car ("Darn windshield...")
Yes, you can lob fireballs from inside a sphere of darkness, and they will go off and hit anyone in the area without penalty.
BUT....
Unless you have some way of knowing where your enemies are(blind sense, listen check, etc), then you are metagaming. Also remember, if you are blind, you may not be able to tell friend from foe.
Remember that the gaming grid is an abstraction, and just because other members of your party can see the bad guys and their are models on the table does not mean that your character knows that information.
Running into a darkness spell, and throwing a fireball at the last know location of bad guys is fine. But unless you have some method for pinpointing their location, as a DM, I would feel well within my rights to make the spell go off at someplace other than the intended location.
For example, if you hide inside a darkness spell, I may force a survival check with a DC of 15 + 2 x number of rounds you have been in the darkness to keep your sense of direction. Failure may cause you to throw fireballs in directions other than what you intended.
Running into a darkness spell, and throwing a fireball at the last know location of bad guys is fine. But unless you have some method for pinpointing their location, as a DM, I would feel well within my rights to make move the spell.
The standard way of doing this is to ask a teammate outside the effect where the bad guy is. "He's near the door, but I'm there too!" . . . "I heard him by the throne!" and so forth. It's not perfect -- and yes, the chance you'll fry a teammate increases a bit -- but it covers the metagaming angle most of the time. And the amount of information asked isn't typically large enough to expand talking beyond a free action.
Just out of curiosity, how do you handle glass in your games?
This is an irritating point for me. A closed window blocks line of effect. Period. A lot of DMs don't get the distinction between lines of sight and effect, but there is a distinct difference.
A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier.
@meabolex: thanks for clearing that up. i was confused with rules as written and your clarification helped.
@wynterknight: yeah, that never happened in my medieval games, but thinking of it, i'd rule that spells that logically require only seeing the target, or the target seeing/hearing you -like charm or cause fear- would work. no area spells, touch spells or line spells. can't think and rule for all spells from top of my head though.
@charender: what you say sounds logical to me. rules as written don't stop you from casting spells exactly where you want to cast, whether you see the place or not but that's definitely metagaming. ranged attacks having some miss chance rule but spells being free of them also seems weird to me. i too will think of house rules, maybe similar to your survival rule. thanks : )
This is an irritating point for me. A closed window blocks line of effect. Period. A lot of DMs don't get the distinction between lines of sight and effect, but there is a distinct difference.
A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier.
I prefer flavor and verisimilitude over an unflinching implementation of rules as written.
If a rule says that a solid barrier blocks line of effect and a wall of transparent tissue paper is between the caster and the target, I let it go. Just me of course. Same with a fragile pane of glass. If a caster cast a lightning bolt such that the line passed through a pane of glass, I do not have the effect stop at the glass, I have it continue and describe the shattered glass as exploding in a million shards while the bolt reaches its normal termination point.
A little expansion on my logic.
If you go back to the 2nd edition wording on fireball, it actually talks about how you launch a fireball. You pick a direction and a distance.
Now fast forward to PF, I don't see why you wouldn't still launch a fireball that way. How else are your going to target it, GPS coordinates?
With that in mind, I would expect that you launch a lot of spells by picking a direction and distance. I find it very unlikely that you would target a spell by saying I want to target the spell 30' east and 25' north of my current location. Even then, without adding divination magic how does the spell know which way north is? or does it simple use the direction the player thinks is north? What if the player things east is north, but the spell knows which way north really is?
That said, if you are disoriented by a blindness effect, you may or may not remember exactly where the door is. If you have ever played pin the tail on the donkey you know just how easy it is for your sense of direction to get hosed up. After getting spun around 3 times, most people need to be pointed in the right general direction.
Now throw in loud sounds of combat, people trying to kill you, maybe an arrow or 2 wizzing by you, and a friend screaming "They're by the door, blast them, blast them...."
In short, blindness is meant to be a disability. Hiding in coucealment can be very useful, but there should be a chance for things to go horribly wrong.
I prefer flavor and verisimilitude over an unflinching implementation of rules as written.
That's ok, I prefer rules in a rules-based system (:
I don't think the transparent tissue would be very solid. Glass may be brittle, but at least it's solid. And FWIW, lightning bolt has text that explicitly lets it travel past barriers if it destroys them. . .
If the damage caused to an interposing barrier shatters or breaks through it, the bolt may continue beyond the barrier if the spell's range permits; otherwise, it stops at the barrier just as any other spell effect does.
That's ok, I prefer rules in a rules-based system (:
To each their own! :)
I don't think the transparent tissue would be very solid. Glass may be brittle, but at least it's solid.
By any normal definition I'd say tissue paper is a "solid" as opposed to a liquid or a gas. No less solid than glass or plastic wrap. For that matter, if I hung a wall of plastic wrap in a hallway, by the rules as written fireball stops at the "solid barrier". This is where DM adjudication comes in to decide what makes "sense" and what doesn't.
And FWIW, lightning bolt has text that explicitly lets it travel past barriers if it destroys them. . .
An admittedly bad example on my part. Substitute <any other spell that needs line of effect> for <lightning bolt> in that case.
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How big a line is needed for line of effect? Can you cast magic missile through a keyhole?
And how much of a target do you need to be able to see to get line of sight? Can you cast Dominate Person on the 1/2 inch part of a person you can see standing outside the living room window, through the slip in the drawn curtains, when looking through the keyhole in the door from the kitchen?
From the Magic chapter, Line of Effect:
An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell's line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell's line of effect.
Hope this helps.
Being in a spot of darkness doesn't remove your hearing. If you are actually near a battle, you can lob spells almost unerringly towards said battle. If you had a clear vision of the battlefield before the darkness crept up, you could orient yourself by touching the walls.
That said...
If you actually enter a darkness spot without knowing its content, and if the battle goes on all around you, then I'll probably rule your spellcasting as it has been suggested before: randomly.
What about spells that do not project any kind of "ray" or "beam" or other effect? Can I charm someone from the other side of a closed window as long as I can see them? Can I conjure a minor image into a room while looking through said window?
Neither Charm Person nor Minor Image state that they need line of effect (or even line of sight for that matter, though that would seem to be a given). I would rule that either of these spells could be used through a window. If you can see the target and it is within range of the spell, then I would allow it.
Neither Charm Person nor Minor Image state that they need line of effect (or even line of sight for that matter, though that would seem to be a given). I would rule that either of these spells could be used through a window. If you can see the target and it is within range of the spell, then I would allow it.
No, they don't state they need line of effect. However, charm person has a target. Silent image creates an effect in a space. The PRD is pretty clear:
You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect.
Neither Charm Person nor Minor Image state that they need line of effect (or even line of sight for that matter, though that would seem to be a given). I would rule that either of these spells could be used through a window. If you can see the target and it is within range of the spell, then I would allow it.No, they don't state they need line of effect. However, charm person has a target. Silent image creates an effect in a space. The PRD is pretty clear:
You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect.
In this case then I would happily Rule 0 it. :)
Well just to make things a bit more complicated, the physics guy in me insist to tell you that glass is actually not a solid but rather a liquid or a meta stage between solid and liquid. =)
Well just to make things a bit more complicated, the physics guy in me insist to tell you that glass is actually not a solid but rather a liquid or a meta stage between solid and liquid. =)
Amorphous solid q: I see the word solid still, so it's a solid q:
Heh. True. So now you have the issue of casting spells into water... :)
A quick additional question on this point. How does line of effect work with spells that have an area? If an orc is standing just around a corner from me, I have neither line of sight nor line of effect to him. If I lob a fireball at the square next to him (which I do have both line of sight and line of effect to), does he get hit by the fireball as it expands? It would seem silly if it did not, wouldn't it?
Any core text references would be much appreciated!
Unless you have some way of knowing where your enemies are(blind sense, listen check, etc), then you are metagaming. Also remember, if you are blind, you may not be able to tell friend from foe.
If you don't have some way to know an enemy is there why are you casting a spell there?
Remember that the gaming grid is an abstraction, and just because other members of your party can see the bad guys and their are models on the table does not mean that your character knows that information.
If the allies shout that is another thing altogether, but point is agreeable. The gaming grid as an abstraction is true, but an odd line to put there... would you please expound on what you meant?
Running into a darkness spell, and throwing a fireball at the last know location of bad guys is fine. But unless you have some method for pinpointing their location, as a DM, I would feel well within my rights to make the spell go off at someplace other than the intended location.
And of course you would do the exact same thing for the fighter that ran into the darkness spell and shot arrows at the last known location of the enemy? Otherwise as a player I would call foul.
For example, if you hide inside a darkness spell, I may force a survival check with a DC of 15 + 2 x number of rounds you have been in the darkness to keep your sense of direction. Failure may cause you to throw fireballs in directions other than what you intended.
This would apply to everyone equally correct? (unless a means of knowing your direction was available -- such as know direction, or darkvision, or blindsense etc) Not a bad idea for a house rule. could be problematic. I once tried to run a game with seperate tiles for different characters based on what they could see and know at the time... that was rather cumbersome though. I would suggest having a wall to put a hand on would help with the knowing which way to point too.