Hi everyone,
maybe someone from the Paizo team could shed some light on the following issue. Maybe it requires an erratum, maybe I'm just not getting the designer's point ;).
The Burning Disarm spell from the Pathfinder Companion: Cheliax, Empire of Devils reads as follows (relevant parts only):
Level cleric 1, druid 1, sorcerer/wizard 1
(...)
Duration Instantaneous
Saving Throw Reflex negates (object, see text); Spell Resistance Yes (object)This spell causes a metal object to instantly become red hot. A creature holding the item may attempt a Reflex save to drop it and take no damage (even if it is not their turn), otherwise the hot metal deals 1d4 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 5d4). Circumstances that prevent the creature from dropping the item (such as a locked gauntlet) mean the creature gets no saving throw.(...)
As written, this spell makes no sense to me.
Basically, the wording allows two possible interpretations:
1) You can choose if you want to drop the item held or not ('may attempt a reflex save'). This way, everyone but the most timid goblin would hold on to the sword, taking the 1d4 damage (the more tactically sound choice than losing both your weapon and, possibly, an action to pick it up). This would make the spell next to worthless.
2) You can't choose if you want to drop the weapon. You have to make a reflex save to drop the weapon, otherwise you take damage. This has the strange effect of actually penalizing you for making your save, since losing your weapon is something I'd consider far worse than a puny xd4 points of damage.
I think the spell should be reworded and reworked to make more sense, and to provide adequate effects for a 1st level spell, as follows:
This spell causes a metal object to instantly become red hot. A creature holding the item must drop it to avoid taking 1d4 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 5d4). It may, however, make a reflex save in order to hold on to the weapon. (The rest of the spell works as written.)
What do you think?
The spell while the idea is nice, is a bit clunky in execution.
I can't conjure up a spell this instant to fit a 1st level spell with the effect it should have.
maybe:
ranged touch attack, 1d6 damage lvl 1 and every 2 levels after till a max of 5d6 at level 9
If aimed at an item held by a creature the creature can choose to make a reflex save to drop this item to avoid all damage from the spell.
though to be honest forcing this save from a creature not knowing howmuch it will hurt if he doesn't gives the spell an unfair power for a first level spell.
It's a level one spell which either deals a bit of damage or disarms the target. It's pretty much a lose/lose situation, although the effects aren't drastic. I think it's an okay spell for 1st level, myself.
Please keep in mind I'm not worried about the hit point damage, that's perfectly fine for a 1st level spell. Having to drop your weapon would be another matter, because it wouldn't quite make sense with the way saves work. Not having to drop your weapon, well ... then 2/3 of the spell would become redundant.
This may not be an ideal spell to open a combat, but it can certainly finish it. I can see a wounded first-level character having to make a choice between dropping their weapon or potentially going down.
The spell makes sense to me as it is: The target has a choice: accept d4 damage or try to drop their weapon in time (i.e. make a Reflex save).
Plus, if it's a fifth-level caster, we're talking 5d4 damage, not 1d4 damage. An average of 12.5 damage - that would give many unwounded second-level characters pause, and near the end of a combat could easily force a disarm.
Especially if the players don't metagame the crap out of it.
DM: Your rapier starts to glow red-hot and you have a split second to make a decision - do you drop it before it begins to burn your hand?
Player: Ai! Yes!
DM: Okay, make a Reflex save.
Alternately, consider this being cast two rounds in a row. The first round they ignore the damage. But how many level 1-3 characters can ignore 1d4 points of automatic damage per round?
ROTFLMAO!
Very interesting - I consider this spell to be among the most broken spells I own a copy of, precisely because it is "lose/lose" - Automatic damage or automatic disarm. That's very rough for a first level spell.
I do completely agree that the saving throw is just odd - almost should be Fort save to hold on to it instead.
I actually just two days ago rewrote it to add: That makes it a choice "take the damage, or try to avoid it, but you may drop your weapon."
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Although it is worded strangely, my interpretation has always been that you drop the weapon regardless and that the relflex save was to negate the damage. It is called Burning Disarm after all.
This would read something like this:
This spell causes a metal object to instantly become red hot, causing the owner to drop it. A creature holding the item is allowed a reflex save to negate the damage, otherwise the hot metal deals 1d4 fire damage per caster level.
As far as the 'may make a reflex save'. I'm not totally sure, but I think there are some spells that use that wording in the spell descriptions, and its not meant to be taken literally, as in a choice.
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Although it is worded strangely, my interpretation has always been that you drop the weapon regardless and that the relflex save was to negate the damage. It is called Burning Disarm after all.
This would read something like this:
This spell causes a metal object to instantly become red hot, causing the owner to drop it. A creature holding the item is allowed a reflex save to negate the damage, otherwise the hot metal deals 1d4 fire damage per caster level.
As far as the 'may make a reflex save'. I'm not totally sure, but I think there are some spells that use that wording in the spell descriptions, and its not meant to be taken literally, as in a choice.
This is the way I read it. The creature drops the weapon, regardless of the Reflex save. If the save passes, he simply avoids the damage.
Though, an automatic disarm for a 1st level spell is pretty potent. The 1st level wizard can make the 12th level fighter drop his sword automatically with no chance for the fighter to hang onto it (short of wearing a locked gauntlet)? That sounds like some adjustment is needed.
If the weapon wielder decided he could take the damage and doesn't drop his weapon, it's still red-hot. Could he do the same fire damage to whoever he attacks with it? That could be a balancing factor.
The 12th level fighter might think that's pretty cool, particularly if he's got some fire resistance going on! A low-level character would still have to drop it.
... an automatic disarm for a 1st level spell is pretty potent. The 1st level wizard can make the 12th level fighter drop his sword automatically with no chance for the fighter to hang onto it (short of wearing a locked gauntlet)? That sounds like some adjustment is needed.
That's why it's not an auto-drop. A 12th level fighter is going to laugh at the d4 damage. Yes, he'd probably notice a maximized one that was dealing a whole 20hp damage, but he's still not going to drop his sword for it.
As for ongoing fire damage: no way. It has a duration of "Instantaneous" ... it's more like a flash of heat than any kind of ongoing effect.
It's the no save part that makes it nasty.
Now, I don't have that sourcebook and the OP chopped the description, but if it were me, I wouldn't be casting it on a weapon, I'd be casting it on armor. No way to instantaneously remove armor. This spell is essentially a no save, one-round version of heat metal.
Now, I don't have that sourcebook and the OP chopped the description, but if it were me, I wouldn't be casting it on a weapon, I'd be casting it on armor. No way to instantaneously remove armor. This spell is essentially a no save, one-round version of heat metal.
Wouldn't it just be better to cast Magic Missile?
Anyways, the item must be held.
The spell..
Cool, thanks! I had a hunch there might be restrictions.
Wouldn't it just be better to cast Magic Missile?
Probably depends on the circumstances.
3d4+3 damage (ave. 10.5) vs 5d4 damage (ave. 12.5) at 5th level. No save vs. magic missile, but lots of ways of blocking it. Reflex save vs. burning disarm, but no way of blocking it.
Seems like each might have its place. Especially against creatures susceptible to fire.