Hide in Plain Sight

[david sandberg 955]

I'm currently playing as a lvl 8 rogue and would like to have him lvl all the way up to lvl 20, but at the same time have the ability to hide in plain sight. I was think that it should be able to be done at lvl 10 rogue advanced talents, but am curious of what everyone else thinks.

[Dave Young 992]

I see no way to do it without a level dip into shadowdancer with RAW.

If you're really dying to be a 20th lvl rogue AND have that awesome ability, you might want to bargain with your DM. It's worth more than a rogue talent. He might let you have it in exchange for giving up something really good, like evasion.

Hide in plain sight still requires the right background; either shadow or a favored environment, so it's not as good as plain old invisibility, in most cases. You could just get a magic item and be as hard to see as a shadowdancer, and you wouldn't need a shadow.

[Auspician]

Hide in Plain sight is actually far more powerful than Invisibility, especially at higher levels when enemies commonly have See Invisibility ready or active. All invisibility does is give you +20 to your stealth check, assuming you are moving, and it can be easily thwarted by magic.

Hide in Plain sight, on the other hand, allows you to hide in situations you normally wouldn't (such as activating Invisibility in range of someone with See Invisibility active) and also allows you to automatically 're-hide' every time you move (assuming you're still in an area that qualifies). Combine this with Spring Attack, and you have yourself a lethal combination.

I'd suggest the dip into Shadowdancer.

[Fred Ohm]

Why not simply asking your DM to let you take more than 20 levels ?

[KaeYoss]

Adding hide in plain sight to the advanced talents list is one of my oldest house rules, I think.

These days it's a lot easier to get decent perception bonuses (it's a single skill now, and not having it as a class skill just means -3 instead of getting your ranks cut in half), so it's not exactly a sure thing.

It may be more powerful than invisibility, but that's okay, the rogue should be more powerful at stealthy stuff than a 2nd-level spell. Especially if he needs an ability he cannot get before 10th (and I usually require camouflage - another addition to the advanced talents list - as a prerequisite, so we're talking harm/disintegrate levels here)

[angryscrub]

actually, i would suggest looking at something like the wilderness rogue variant from unearthed arcana as an example of how to do it. give camoflage and hide in plain sight as per the ranger abilities as advanced talents. takes two talents, but is ex, which suits the rogue better than su in my opinion.

[Kraven Evilfart]

the cheliax book has a couple feats in it, one (hellcat stealth i think) requires skill focus(stealth) as a prereq and 6 ranks in stealth. but it lets you hide in normal or bright light and while being observed for a -10 penalty to your stealth. sure its -10 penalty but you don't even require a shadow in the room to do it.

link to the book Cheliax: empire of devils

[Shadowlord]

Kraven Evilfart wrote:

the cheliax book has a couple feats in it, one (hellcat stealth i think) requires skill focus(stealth) as a prereq and 6 ranks in stealth. but it lets you hide in normal or bright light and while being observed for a -10 penalty to your stealth. sure its -10 penalty but you don't even require a shadow in the room to do it.

I have seen this feat. I don't think it does the same thing as true Hide in Plain Sight. True HiPS does two things to your Stealth skill: 1) It eliminates the need for cover/concealment as long as you fulfill a certain requirement (Favored terrain for Rangers*, Dim Light for Shadowdancers, and Shadow for Assassins) and 2) It allows you to hide even while being observed, again if you fulfill the requirements.

* Rangers technically gain two skills that, together, make up their version of HiPS. 1) Camouflage, which eliminates their need for cover/concealment in favored terrain and 2) HiPS, which allows them to hide even while observed in their favored terrain.

You can already use Stealth during daylight conditions, you simply have two requirements. 1) You need cover/invisibility to attempt Stealth and 2) you cannot be actively observed by anyone you are trying to hide from. Hellcat Stealth eliminates one of those requirements and allows you to hide even while observed. But it makes no mention of eliminating the requirement of cover/invisibility that you must still have to use Stealth in bright or normal light.

If it was the designers intention to make Hellcat Stealth as effective as true HiPS they did a poor job wording the feat as it doesn't ever mention being able to use Stealth without cover/invisibility while in bright or normal light. Also, IMO, I doubt it was the designer’s intent to give full blown Daylight HiPS as a feat. If so, then why not give all forms of HiPS as feats and eliminate it all together from all Class and Prestige Class ability lists?

That is my take on the feat. It is still a good feat though. The difficulty of hiding during the day is a big weakness for Rogues. Any bit of help they can get to augment that weakness is going to be an advantage and being able to hide while observed in bright and normal lighting conditions is a strong advantage. If anyone has another opinion and can point out to me where the feat allows you to hide without cover/invisibility I would be interested.