I want to get people's feeling on Flying Ship-to-Ship combat rules and should they be based off of the Modern SRD Future Spaceship combat rules with some treaks (some major, some minor)? Let me know what you think.
Though I'm not familiar with Modern SRD Future Spaceship rules, I'd be interested in seeing this (I'm looking for an easy to use system for aerial ship-to-ship combat).
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Ship-to-ship combat rules in d20 don't seem to be an easy thing to achieve, much less to please everyone, so the best of luck with that.
I don't think that treating ships as characters in melee is a particularly good analogy or that the d20 Future combat system is thoroughly developed. I've heard not-good things about its scaling of ship hit points and weapon damage at capital ship scales (it might work better at the scale of 18th-century sailing vessels mostly well under line-of-battle size, which would be light ships at most), though I haven't run a starship combat myself. What I have seen of d20 Future combat systems in play, involving the mecha chapter, doesn't inspire my confidence.
I'd suggest going back to the d20 Modern vehicle rules and Adamant's Corsair as starting points, maybe looking at d20 Star Wars combat (unfortunately not OGC) for better damage scaling, though these certainly have their problems.
While I honestly am unfamiliar with the mechanics of Modern SRD Future Spaceship either, after seeing the new star trek movie, the battle scene made me think of the mechanic used here. Maybe this can be adapted??
We tried it wish massive ranged mobs when a party was fleeing from a castle. It works like crap when used in melee, but made ranged groups easier. Just my 2 cp.
Ship-to-ship combat rules in d20 don't seem to be an easy thing to achieve, much less to please everyone, so the best of luck with that.
Yea thanks. I think we are going to need it.
I don't think that treating ships as characters in melee is a particularly good analogy or that the d20 Future combat system is thoroughly developed. I've heard not-good things about its scaling of ship hit points and weapon damage at capital ship scales (it might work better at the scale of 18th-century sailing vessels mostly well under line-of-battle size, which would be light ships at most), though I haven't run a starship combat myself. What I have seen of d20 Future combat systems in play, involving the mecha chapter, doesn't inspire my confidence.
Well remember the ship-to-ship comnbat is with FLYING ships, not water based ships, so there are gaoin gto be a few specific issue that space combat and flight might cover.
I'd suggest going back to the d20 Modern vehicle rules and Adamant's Corsair as starting points, maybe looking at d20 Star Wars combat (unfortunately not OGC) for better damage scaling, though these certainly have their problems.
I have a feeling this system is going to be a mash-up of several systems into something new. I think it should work.
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I don't know enough about those rules to have a opinion. But I will say in any ship to ship combat. I want to see something with more than just hp for the ship. There should be a chart of what happens when a ship takes damage(since what takes damage is hugely important).
I would like to see a way to target certain parts of the ship, people in the ship should be able to take damage when the ship is damaged(not always but sometimes it should happen). There should be a honestly new combat move system. Since a straight broadside is so important to a ship and wind is what moves a ship(well flying ones not as much). Manuvering is very important in that regard of ship combat.
Of course the hard part is getting the combat to be interesting and effective with out being tedious and slow.
If it's going to be a mash up of systems, it may better to simply make your own rules from scratch. Or at least from some basic inspiration. It seems to me that you only need Attack, Defense, HP, CMB, CMD, and a generic "Resistance" saving throw for magic effects. Each of these could be modified by the size, maneuverability, and crew skill of a ship as well as the material it's made from. A very good airship to airship combat system can be seen in the Dreamcast video game Skies of Arcadia. Each ship had four actions (Attack with a type of weapon, defend, Etc.) per round and between some rounds you could make a maneuver (try to get behind, cut in front of, Etc.) that might get you tactical advantage or disadvantage in the next round. Having each ship make a maneuver at the beginning of its turn would allow for more exciting turns as well as a strategic damage subsystem like Dark Mistress suggests. CMB and CMD could handle the maneuver success means and advantage to hit or a chance to do strategic damage, as well as things like retreat, evasive maneuvers, boarding actions, and any other flight trick an airship could do. And since both ships can do this it keeps the combat tense and action packed.
Louis,
Will you have an example of a pair of ships duking it out? It would be cool if you had a pair of battlemat examples suitable for minis that we could easily print out those templates. As well, their appropriate stats. I figure it would be good as a base guideline for those of us that want to try to expand from them by building/creating our own at a later date.
maybe do a beta playtest, let people play test the rules and give feedback. If you can come up with a good enough system you could sell the combat system seperately then for air and navel ship combat.
There's going to be ship combat rules for bellybuttons? Now that's something I got to see ... or maybe not. :P
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maybe do a beta playtest, let people play test the rules and give feedback. If you can come up with a good enough system you could sell the combat system seperately then for air and navel ship combat.There's going to be ship combat rules for bellybuttons? Now that's something I got to see ... or maybe not. :P
Huh?
Navel = belly button. You probably meant to type naval. :P
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Spelljammers are flying ships, why not combine the two and make a Spelljammer product?
Spelljammer is a registered trademark of WotC as well as copyrighted. However from the various threads related to this product it has pretty much been hinted that the general feel will be similar in a lot of ways.
As for the rules in question, have you looked over the latest version of Star Wars ship combat Louis? It's been awhile, but if I remember correctly they fixed it up a little bit better than in straight SRD format. I don't like calling it Hit Points for a ship nor describing the ship as a character. The hull type should definitely soak up damage before it yields to the damage so that metal hulls can take more damage than wood and so on. I think an aspect that is over looked is damage control by the ships crew. There should some way of accounting for it so that a crew with a better damage control rating is more able to keep the ship going. I believe there should be a finite number of ship designs that are accessible in the campaign divided up between older models and newer ones, at least in regards to warships. Perhaps ironclads are just emerging on the scene reminiscent of the end of the Civil War. Close quarter combat should also be addressed to allow for all out fighting between ships as well as crew. In that regard I think friendly fire rules should be included as it is too often over looked that speed up the story. The more I think about it the more I really hope you do a beta before finishing the setting.
Personally, I want there to be two types of combat: Fleet Ship-to-ship for big epic battles with 10 or more ships or Ship-to-Ship for less than 6 ships at a time. I would liek it if no matter what type you played you could go back and forth between types easily in the middle of play.
Alternatively you could imagine a world where there is no bottom, objects that fall would eventually get crushed by increasing air pressure and temperature. To accomodate this, you might want to include "natural floating islands" of rock and dirt for people to live on. The planet this is on, would be a sort of gas giant, perhaps one the size of Jupiter. A gas giant based fantasy world would not need the special fixes of Spelljammer, it could include things like weather, storms and giant flying creatures to menace the air ships. What do you think of this?
WTF???? Have you been reading my notes over my shoulder? That is EXACTLY what I am doing. Stop freaking me out! LOL!!!
Ack! Fluffing Memes. :P
I found the following OGL products to be helpful when I used to bring Spelljammer elements to my games, or when wanting more rules for my Eberron stuff.
Airships & Aerial Adventure Guide.
Neither to me are truly complete, but I added some of the Star Wars Saga Edition spaceship stuff & some of the WotC Stormwrack rules.
I found the following OGL products to be helpful when I used to bring Spelljammer elements to my games, or when wanting more rules for my Eberron stuff.
Airships & Aerial Adventure Guide.
Neither to me are truly complete, but I added some of the Star Wars Saga Edition spaceship stuff & some of the WotC Stormwrack rules.
I actually have both of those items that I've acquired at Half Price Books for precisely the reasons you've stated. Thanks for the endorsement for pilfering ideas.
I actually have both of those items that I've acquired at Half Price Books for precisely the reasons you've stated. Thanks for the endorsement for pilfering ideas.I found the following OGL products to be helpful when I used to bring Spelljammer elements to my games, or when wanting more rules for my Eberron stuff.
Airships & Aerial Adventure Guide.
Neither to me are truly complete, but I added some of the Star Wars Saga Edition spaceship stuff & some of the WotC Stormwrack rules.
I really liked the 10'x10'x10' air tonnage out of Airships, as well as the 3d distance charts in the Aerial Adventure Guide.The volume for tonnage helped mesh with existing vehicle rules, somewhat. The chart also helped with visualizing 3d combat.
I didnt care much for the power source rules, as I was using either Spelljaming influenced helms, or the elemental powered systems in Eberron. I used the old formulae for the helms from SJ, but used the helmsman's SR (Speed Rating) as a multiplier, just as Stormwrack uses wind strength as a multiplier, to the ships base speed. That way some vessels can be fast by design and not dependent JUST on the helmsman.
I recently purchased the WARS RPG from Mongoose. These are scifi rules that are all pretty much OGC, except for their own character generation. All classes, feats, & new rules are OGC. They include an interesting system for starship combat that involve giving commands to the crew, or they are maneuvers when dealing with small fighters. You guys may want to check it out. I got a hard copy from Amazon because it is out of print & was cheaper. The PDF is available at RPGNow.
I recently purchased the WARS RPG from Mongoose. These are scifi rules that are all pretty much OGC, except for their own character generation. All classes, feats, & new rules are OGC. They include an interesting system for starship combat that involve giving commands to the crew, or they are maneuvers when dealing with small fighters. You guys may want to check it out. I got a hard copy from Amazon because it is out of print & was cheaper. The PDF is available at RPGNow.
Am I understandng you correctly that it is d20 compatible? Or is it another system?
Am I understandng you correctly that it is d20 compatible? Or is it another system?I recently purchased the WARS RPG from Mongoose. These are scifi rules that are all pretty much OGC, except for their own character generation. All classes, feats, & new rules are OGC. They include an interesting system for starship combat that involve giving commands to the crew, or they are maneuvers when dealing with small fighters. You guys may want to check it out. I got a hard copy from Amazon because it is out of print & was cheaper. The PDF is available at RPGNow.
Yes, it is d20. Allot of it is like the d20 Modern but uses 3.5e coventions.
Yes, it is d20. Allot of it is like the d20 Modern but uses 3.5e coventions.
Hm. Losing the job a week ago, I got to see what's going to come in for unemployment and taxes, but I did see the cheap used price on the link you provided.
Do they also have new races?
Yes, it is d20. Allot of it is like the d20 Modern but uses 3.5e coventions.Hm. Losing the job a week ago, I got to see what's going to come in for unemployment and taxes, but I did see the cheap used price on the link you provided.
Do they also have new races?
Two new races, but not PC races. It has a strange primes, based off a CCG. Has an alternate psionics system. Seems to be based heavily on some of the d20 Modern/Future SRD, but more inline with standard d20.
That cheap price is why I got the hard copy. The PDF is expensive.
Two new races, but not PC races. It has a strange primes, based off a CCG. Has an alternate psionics system. Seems to be based heavily on some of the d20 Modern/Future SRD, but more inline with standard d20.
That cheap price is why I got the hard copy. The PDF is expensive.
Did you get yours directly from Amazon or one of the 3rd party sellers on the site? I also notice there's a separate Battlefront book & Incursions under the system; know anything about those (if you're planning to get them)?
Did you get yours directly from Amazon or one of the 3rd party sellers on the site? I also notice there's a separate Battlefront book & Incursions under the system; know anything about those (if you're planning to get them)?Two new races, but not PC races. It has a strange primes, based off a CCG. Has an alternate psionics system. Seems to be based heavily on some of the d20 Modern/Future SRD, but more inline with standard d20.
That cheap price is why I got the hard copy. The PDF is expensive.
I got it 3rd party. Not planning to get the others. Mainly wanted the core for my own scifi stuff. Not even using the setting. It will help me update my own Dragonstar material.
I got it 3rd party. Not planning to get the others. Mainly wanted the core for my own scifi stuff. Not even using the setting. It will help me update my own Dragonstar material.
Mark me down as someone that would love to port Dragonstar over to Pathfinder. I'll have to check out that book, then. But with the hope that Super Genius Games will launch the Modern/Future patronage next month, it'll help me/us better convert the crunch/fluff by having some sort of base standardization and less patching.
What are the big No-No's with flying ships? What shouldn't we do with Pirates of the Bronze Sky?
What are the big No-No's with flying ships? What shouldn't we do with Pirates of the Bronze Sky?
They shouldn't sing & dance, like the Pirates of Penzance.
That aside, lets make sure the rules mesh well. Don't try to do anything different just to be different. If a set of OGC rules seems to work (with your own personal tweeks, of course) then use them. Not saying anything we discussed fits that, but it might.
Me, personally, I want construction rules. If nothing else, rules to modify existing vessels. This is sounding very pulpish, so I would like it to be like a Star Wars feel (I hope you know I don't mean a literal translation, but atmosphere from a sci fantasy genere) in a fantasy pulp setting. There is a MMORPG being developed called Allods. Follow the link & check out the movies. That is what I would like to see. At least the ones showing flying ships. Especially movie #2. That was the original trailer.
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What are the big No-No's with flying ships? What shouldn't we do with Pirates of the Bronze Sky?
Technology creep. Don't describe ships that use bombards and then put out a supplement with breech-loading naval rifles. Not even if the new race that uses them is God's gift to RPGs, in the writer's estimation.
What are the big No-No's with flying ships? What shouldn't we do with Pirates of the Bronze Sky?Technology creep. Don't describe ships that use bombards and then put out a supplement with breech-loading naval rifles. Not even if the new race that uses them is God's gift to RPGs, in the writer's estimation.
I can second this. I do like the firearms & cannon rules a bit like Green Ronin's. Especially the one in Skulls & Crossbones.
I had another thought about the asked for construction rules. I, myself, would be understanding if in the first book you just gave stats for common ships. Maybe some light rules for modifications. Then, if the line does as well as hoped, you could release a PDF on ship construction. This has been done with a number of SciFi RPGs, including the Star Wars Saga Edition.
I had another thought about the asked for construction rules. I, myself, would be understanding if in the first book you just gave stats for common ships. Maybe some light rules for modifications. Then, if the line does as well as hoped, you could release a PDF on ship construction. This has been done with a number of SciFi RPGs, including the Star Wars Saga Edition.
I would do pre-made ship and construction rules for ships in the same book.
I had a lot of fun with my group when they were traveling through the Astral Plane on a skiff, and being boarded by pirates. I like the feel of boarding actions, and there's nothing quite like the feel of having a couple hundred grappling hooks pulling your ships together...
If anything, you can't take physics too seriously. Heavy cannon on flying ships would mean that the nice, flying, wooden corvettes get flung in the opposite direction from their target.