What goes into Shield Master exactly?

[Ravingdork]

I am making a 13th-level fighter who specializes in the shield. Am I doing my math right?

SHIELD BONUS
+2 heavy steel shield
+3 magical enhancement
+2 shield focus & greater shield focus
EQUALS a +7 shield bonus to AC

SHIELD ATTACK ROLL
+13 base attack bonus
+7 for Shield Master
+3 for 16 Strength
+2 for Weapon Mastery (2nd choice)
EQUALS a +25/+20/+15 attack modifier

SHIELD DAMAGE ROLL
1d4 base
1d8 bashing magic quality
+7 Shield Master
+2 for Weapon Mastery (2nd choice)
+1 for 16 Strength (1/2 mod due to offhand)
EQUALS 1d8+10 damage

[Luei]

Your shield bonus and damage calculations look sound, from a glance, but I don't think you did the attack roll one right.
Specifically, I don't think Shield Master adds your entire AC bonus from shield to your attack roll. Rather, the feat specifies that you add your "shield bonus" to the attack roll. I think it means the "+2 heavy steel shield" part of your AC calculation is also added to the attack roll. I also don't think you add the enhancement modifier on attack rolls, since you have to reenchant the shield with an offensive bonus to get a magical bonus on attack. So your attack bonus, then, I believe, would be +20/+15/+10.

As a side note, try adding spikes to your shield. They add another size worth of damage to the shield, making it 2d6 (though a few people here on the forums don't believe bashing and shield spikes stack, though they obviously should, won't get into it any more now).

[Jonne Karila]

It has been debated before whether the enchantment bonus applies to shield mastery or not. Some clarification would be in order.

I'd rule that the shield focus also applies to the shield mastery, resulting in +7 AC, +4 attack bonus, +4 dmg bonus

[Ravingdork]

The above numbers incorporate the shield's magical enhancement bonus (which enhances the shield bonus and should therefore apply, since enhancement bonuses are meant to enhance existing bonuses) as well as the Shield Focus and Greater Shield Focus bonuses (which specifically says it ups your existing bonus to AC, which is a shield bonus).

Enchanting your shield with offensive magical enhancements is still a good idea for those who don't take up shield mastery or get too deep into the shield feat tree, but still want to put the hurt on.

Or at least that's my interpretation of it. I was wondering if it should be done differently, hence this thread.

[Luei]

Oh, hey. Shield master adds to your damage roll too. Hadn't noticed.

As for the shield focus bonus, I don't believe they would give you a bonus on attack and damage from having shield mastery, simply for the reason that it doesn't come from the "shield bonus" of your shield, it comes from having the feat. A matter of contention, though.

As for the enhancement bonus being added, i don't think so. the give a shield an offensive enhancement, you have to pay for it and apply it from the magical WEAPON aspect of it. It's a given you have to do so when using shield spikes, and they don't modify the shield in any substantial way lending to this argument, so it should be the same for a regualr shield.

[Ravingdork]

Luei wrote:

Oh, hey. Shield master adds to your damage roll too. Hadn't noticed.

As for the shield focus bonus, I don't believe they would give you a bonus on attack and damage from having shield mastery, simply for the reason that it doesn't come from the "shield bonus" of your shield, it comes from having the feat. A matter of contention, though.

As for the enhancement bonus being added, i don't think so. the give a shield an offensive enhancement, you have to pay for it and apply it from the magical WEAPON aspect of it. It's a given you have to do so when using shield spikes, and they don't modify the shield in any substantial way lending to this argument, so it should be the same for a regualr shield.

See my above post. I'm guessing it wasn't there yet when you typed your answer.

[Luei]

Oh, hi! I didn't see you there.

Okay, after reviewing the rules in the core rulebook on feats and the "shields" area on p.462, I have concluded thusly:

Shield focus would factor into the bonus granted by Shield Mastery.
Enhancement bonuses do not, and here's why:
In the Magic Items chapter (where I previously mentioned and around there), it specifically types the bonus granted by enchanting the shield as "shield enhancement bonus", not "shield bonus".
It further says that "Shield enhancement bonuses do not act as attack or damage bonuses when the shield is used in a shield bash." Also, "A shield could be built that also acted as a magical weapon, but the cost of the enhancement bonus on attack rolls would need to be added into the cost of the shield and its enhancement bonus to AC."
From this I gather that, indeed, a shield needs to be doubly enchanted to give both AC and attack and damage bonuses, and that the writers intended this to stay constant, even in the wake of Shield Mastery.

Oh, and by the by, bashing also gives a +1 bonus to attack and damage of the shield.

[Ravingdork]

Luei wrote:

Oh, and by the by, bashing also gives a +1 bonus to attack and damage of the shield.

Thanks!

Oh, and by the way, none of the rules support you provided for your interpretation is concrete enough for me (a shield enhancement bonus is still a shield bonus).

Nevertheless, I'm still thankful to you for having shared your thoughts.

[Xum]

I cannot find the post, however it's been said before by Sean that only the BASE bonus add in shield Mastery, so, it would be +2 tops.

However u could enhance it as a weapon, there is a question regarding this however, can a Shield get +10 as weapon AND +10 as shield from magic enhancements? I don't think they can, but it's a pretty fair question.

[Dire Hobbit]

If the shield is your only weapon, than disregard this.

A heavy shield wielded in the off hand with another weapon would give the same penalties for wielding two heavy weapons. You may want to downgrade the shield to a light shield so the to hit penalties are "just" -2.

Most folks would use this as part of TWF. IMHO it's pretty effective in that role. If you are using the shield alone, they you are taking a feat to qualify for Shield Master that you won't be using. On top of that, there are other weapons that are more effective. But hey, it's your character.

[Xum]

Dire Hobbit wrote:

If the shield is your only weapon, than disregard this.

A heavy shield wielded in the off hand with another weapon would give the same penalties for wielding two heavy weapons. You may want to downgrade the shield to a light shield so the to hit penalties are "just" -2.

Most folks would use this as part of TWF. IMHO it's pretty effective in that role. If you are using the shield alone, they you are taking a feat to qualify for Shield Master that you won't be using. On top of that, there are other weapons that are more effective. But hey, it's your character.

I don't understand what you are saying here.

[Ravingdork]

Xum wrote:

I cannot find the post, however it's been said before by Sean that only the BASE bonus add in shield Mastery, so, it would be +2 tops.

Funny, that's not what the rules say. Guess it's another one for the errata. Please link to the post if you find it.

[Xum]

Ravingdork wrote:

Xum wrote:

I cannot find the post, however it's been said before by Sean that only the BASE bonus add in shield Mastery, so, it would be +2 tops.

Funny, that's not what the rules say. Guess it's another one for the errata.

It depends on the way you read it I suppose. It says "add your shield bonus" It doesn't say anything about magical bonus or any other.

It is a powerfull ability as is, you ignore the penalty for 2-weapon fighting AND add +2 to attack and damage, there is no way you can get a bonus like this with any other weapon, so it's a pretty neat deal.

In fact, I thought about making a character based on shield slaming, with his shield as "primary" weapon, with specialization and such on it.

[The Wraith]

This is the post that you are speaking of... but it's not from Sean, it's from Jason.

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Hey there folks,

I am going to try and clarify this in a future errata. The intent here was to add the shields base bonus as an enhancement bonus (that is, +1 for light shields, +2 for heavy).

Sorry about the mix up.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

[Xum]

The Wraith wrote:

This is the post that you are speaking of... but it's not from Sean, it's from Jason.

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Hey there folks,

I am going to try and clarify this in a future errata. The intent here was to add the shields base bonus as an enhancement bonus (that is, +1 for light shields, +2 for heavy).

Sorry about the mix up.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Why did I say Sean? Go figure... hunger makes this to people.

[Luei]

Oh, ambiguity, where would we be without you? :)

But yeah, An effective +4 bonus from a feat is pretty darned good. Any more and it would be kind of OP, don't you think? Either way, now I know, too. Thanks for linking that post.

[Ravingdork]

Yes, thank you very much.