As we're approaching the end of Enemies of my Enemy, I'm slowly starting to plan ahead the fight vs Demogorgon. At some point before the actual battle, I'll play out a try-out battle, using tactics they normally use.
The party will probably be able to impose most of negative levels on him. To keep things tough, I'll probably make Arendagrost flee when brought to low HP and I'm not sure whether they'll defeat both of Demogorgon's clones. So, at best he'll have 8 NL and at worst 6.
I'm assuming that players won't bother with destroying every single corpse in Wat Dagon (they're never thorough) so with Demogorgon also Nulonga and a summoned Balor will be present.
The party consists of 6 players who'll probably be 20th lvl each of them.
Now my questions are:
How is the party going to have even a chance against Demogorgon after battling through Wat Dagon? It seems to me they'll be weakened by then, or if not, then at least some of their resources spent.
Would it be fair to give items to Demogorgon? I find it silly that a Demon Prince with an ability called Item Master to have not one of them.
For the campaign I ran the over-sized group smoked the guardians of Wat Dagon like a cheap cigar. They could probably have taken him with 0 negative levels in my opinion.
You should by all rights gear him out - I believe that "as written" he has no equippage. If you want a TPK and are running it in 3.5 (with access to Contingent Spell (feat) and Spell Compendium, hang 20 CL 20 Death Throes on him contingency-triggered by his messy demise. Nothing within 10 yards or so will survive. ^_^
Could you give me a link to your Demogorgon?
I'll give him Belt of Magnificence and Boots of Haste at least and maybe 2 rings of greater counterspells, but maybe that's too much. I'll know for sure when I try the tryout battle.
Could you give me a link to your Demogorgon?
I'll give him Belt of Magnificence and Boots of Haste at least and maybe 2 rings of greater counterspells, but maybe that's too much. I'll know for sure when I try the tryout battle.
I *think* that I used his vanilla stats plus a Belt of Battle with 12 charges, 2 greater rings of counterspelling (greater dispel magic loaded), another "anti-magic banner" (identical to the one that Arendagost has in Chapter 11) and a big fat pile of crafted contingent spells.
I'll see if I can dig those stats up - no promises though, they may have been on the now-deceased lap top I had at the time...
Ah, his gear load out from my own campaign.
Demogorgon's gear was pretty simple:
1 Totem of Negation
1 Belt of Bite of the Werebear (massive melee and hp bonuses, with decent nudges to 2 saves and his init bonus).
4 custom Greater Rings of Counterspelling (with no spells hitting him that came into play):
- 2 held 15 Belt of Battle charges each
- 1 of them acted as a standard Ring of Spell Turning
- The fourth provided CL 20 Greater Spell Immunity - key this to suit your group
- the set provided Death Ward, Freedom of Movement, Ray Deflection, Sheltered Vitality and Greater Ironguard
Demogorgon has had agents observing or otherwise "interacting with" the player characters their entire career. Keep in mind that his major attack methods are easily rendered moot by death ward and heroes' feast in 3.5 - I would recommend a single-use disjunction item (CL 20th) as his opening 'attack', range permitting. I also gave him Orcus' normal hit point total as temporary hit points, which made him last longer than 9 seconds against that group.
Yes, I read a bit about your group and your campaign and mine is a bit less over the top. I have 6 players, although usually one is absent (in rare cases, two). Not at all optimized although they do manage to dish out a fair punch.
I don't think I'll use Bite of the Werebear on DG, partially because I disallowed it to the party's druid (I allowed him to use Wereboar only) and partially because +16 to Str is a bit too much for Demogorgon.
Since I'll be giving him Belt of Magnificence (+6 to all stats is something my group could perhaps handle) I won't use Belt of Battle, because he already has a Balor and Nulonga at his side and he himself is effectively two creatures. With his CR and two adds, it's a fair fight.
Death Ward, FoM, Ray Deflection and Sheltered Vitality are a must, although I'll leave out Greater Ironguard. That one seems like a sucker punch. I'll be sure to have Unholy Aura on him once he enters the fight, though.
Disjunction is banned from my games. It's horrible toward players and monsters likewise.
Yes, I read a bit about your group and your campaign and mine is a bit less over the top. I have 6 players, although usually one is absent (in rare cases, two). Not at all optimized although they do manage to dish out a fair punch.
I don't think I'll use Bite of the Werebear on DG, partially because I disallowed it to the party's druid (I allowed him to use Wereboar only) and partially because +16 to Str is a bit too much for Demogorgon.
Since I'll be giving him Belt of Magnificence (+6 to all stats is something my group could perhaps handle) I won't use Belt of Battle, because he already has a Balor and Nulonga at his side and he himself is effectively two creatures. With his CR and two adds, it's a fair fight.
Death Ward, FoM, Ray Deflection and Sheltered Vitality are a must, although I'll leave out Greater Ironguard. That one seems like a sucker punch. I'll be sure to have Unholy Aura on him once he enters the fight, though.
Disjunction is banned from my games. It's horrible toward players and monsters likewise.
For six characters and perhaps less, what you have outlined should provide a very solid challenge for them to overcome. I look forward to the gruesome details! :)
Oh no, all of them will be present at the final battle. I doubt anyone of them would want to miss it, neither would I set a date for the session if I knew someone wouldn't be able to attend. So unless someone just doesn't show up without noticing me in advance (although I doubt that'll happen), all will be present. Don't forget that they'll possibly have Gwynharwyf on their side, though!
Next session (probably wednesday) is meant for encounter with Redfang, Obox-Ob and perhaps Major Enderan.
Since we're all college students and our exams are from middle to end of January, we'll make a break there and continue in February. So, I think it's safe to say that by March or at worst April we'll be finished. We play for about 4 hours every week and I assume they'll need at leas 4 sessions to get to Demogorgon and a fifth one for the final battle and aftermath.
Which would make our campaign about 46 sessions long, over the course of 19 months. I know I'm getting ahead of myself, but I'm just giddy at thought of the prospect. :D
Oh no, all of them will be present at the final battle. I doubt anyone of them would want to miss it, neither would I set a date for the session if I knew someone wouldn't be able to attend. So unless someone just doesn't show up without noticing me in advance (although I doubt that'll happen), all will be present. Don't forget that they'll possibly have Gwynharwyf on their side, though!
Next session (probably wednesday) is meant for encounter with Redfang, Obox-Ob and perhaps Major Enderan.
Since we're all college students and our exams are from middle to end of January, we'll make a break there and continue in February. So, I think it's safe to say that by March or at worst April we'll be finished. We play for about 4 hours every week and I assume they'll need at leas 4 sessions to get to Demogorgon and a fifth one for the final battle and aftermath.
Which would make our campaign about 46 sessions long, over the course of 19 months. I know I'm getting ahead of myself, but I'm just giddy at thought of the prospect. :D
You think they'll need the fru-fru celestial to soak up thier hard-earned massive damage? For shame :P
I agree though, for a campaign that long, missing the last session for any but the most grievous of reasons would be high on the "suck" list.
Well, at this point, I really can't say. Now they don't have as much loot as they should have (they should have started this lvl (19th) with 580 000g worth of gear, yet they have about 350 000 on average). Through no fault of my own, of course. They just didn't bother with searching every room and looting every body lately. I did say that they should be careful about that from now on, since loot represents a major factor in their CR, so maybe they'll catch up.
So once they level up to 20th, take all neccessay preparations, I'll determine whether Demogorgon will need more items or they will need Gwynharwyf.
For some reason, the party's Half-Celestial cleric who just got 15th lvl thinks that casting Planar Ally to summon a Planetar (CR 16) will help them greatly.
Well, at this point, I really can't say. Now they don't have as much loot as they should have (they should have started this lvl (19th) with 580 000g worth of gear, yet they have about 350 000 on average). Through no fault of my own, of course. They just didn't bother with searching every room and looting every body lately. I did say that they should be careful about that from now on, since loot represents a major factor in their CR, so maybe they'll catch up.
So once they level up to 20th, take all neccessay preparations, I'll determine whether Demogorgon will need more items or they will need Gwynharwyf.
For some reason, the party's Half-Celestial cleric who just got 15th lvl thinks that casting Planar Ally to summon a Planetar (CR 16) will help them greatly.
Check the planetar's spell-like abilities, and I think you will see why.
Although being that far behind in loot, you might want to take a closer look at the character's in-game combat performance (attack bonuses of the fighter-types, save DCs for the spell chuckers' highest spell levels) before gearing up the Big D too much.
Although 6 to 8 negative levels will seriously gimp him up, so it is very possible they'll go in on a good, solid footing.
I know, and I'm not that impressed. Sure, he has useful abilities but it's not something the party didn't have to begin with. I'll also calculate XP as if there's 7 of them in the party, since he will be able to contribute in the long run.
That's why I'll make sure Redfang eats him. Of course, I'm giving Redfang Improved Grab ability, it's preposterous he doesn't have it already.
I know, and I'm not that impressed. Sure, he has useful abilities but it's not something the party didn't have to begin with. I'll also calculate XP as if there's 7 of them in the party, since he will be able to contribute in the long run.
That's why I'll make sure Redfang eats him. Of course, I'm giving Redfang Improved Grab ability, it's preposterous he doesn't have it already.
Depends - a simple dismissal or banishment will send his wussy celestial tucas packing. 'Sides, I don't think there's a Planar Ally / Binding that can coerce such a being into being called in for a direct throw-down with the very Prince of Demons.
At least not without assurances from that planetar's Big Kahuna that he will be true ressurrected should he be otherwise perma-death'd in the rancid bowels of the Abyss.
Depending on the specifics in your campaign, of course.
I think he's planning to Call him before the fight with Redfang, meaning there's plenty of chance for him to meet his doom. And to be fair, in the description of Planetar it does say that they help mortals who battle fiends. So, the first one will be a free pass (aside from usual 500 xp and 14 000 gold). The next one will demand double, etc.
I think he's planning to Call him before the fight with Redfang, meaning there's plenty of chance for him to meet his doom. And to be fair, in the description of Planetar it does say that they help mortals who battle fiends. So, the first one will be a free pass (aside from usual 500 xp and 14 000 gold). The next one will demand double, etc.
What about a certain nasty super-kraken lurking in inked waters watching the throw down ?
The resolution of the matter about who receives the crown is rather important, potentially...
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Did this twice now...once as a DM (with crazy party of 6-8 PC's and 3 Cohorts...all optimized all crazy like) and once as a Player (Divine Metamagic Persistent Cleric with Bard Cohort and Planetar Ally)
The Planetar will add in healing (casts as 17th lvl cleric) and some mook-style melee bashing. That greatsword vs. say, the deathknight, or a glabrezu, or something similar is rather nasty.
I think, with the above spells you listed, some creative action-sequences (Greater Dispel + Movement + Full Attack should shred any non-melee types rather nicely), you should be all set.
I would definetely NOT drop him more than 4 or 6 NL, as the AC and saves for the attacks drop off rather significantly.
Good luck, and I too look forward to hearing of the carnage.
-t
The resolution of the matter about who receives the crown is rather important, potentially...
I know it is, and that's why I'd like it to be one of the PCs. But the problem is, aside from the bard (who'll have 32 Cha in the end and I'm thinking about making that bonus from Fountain of Beauty permanent) and the one who kills him, nobody has a chance, since it's just d20+20+cha against +33-43 that Orcus and the rest have.
I would definetely NOT drop him more than 4 or 6 NL, as the AC and saves for the attacks drop off rather significantly.
Yeah, I don't think I'll be dropping him below 6 levels in any case (DCs become a joke at 8 NL).
I just don't get what's so special about his greatsword? Unless I'm horribly missing something, it's just a +3 Greatsword.
I just don't get what's so special about his greatsword? Unless I'm horribly missing something, it's just a +3 Greatsword.
I'll need to go look at the actual entry to see if there's something beyond this that I've forgotten, but - unless my memory's screwy on me - outsiders of certain power levels or higher pass their alignment traits on not only to their natural weapons but also any weapons they weild. And Big D and all his goons are certainly well above that threshold, even if I can't remember exactly where it's at.
Yes, his weapons are treated as good aligned. But again, what's the big deal about it? Mass Align Weapon is a third lvl spell and most of the fighters already have Holy enhancements on their weapons and Demogorgon and other powerful demons have DR Cold Iron and Good (in D's case and epic).
Dunno then. Nothing under the entry says "add this to melee attacks" or otherwise stands out?
I'll need to go look at the actual entry to see if there's something beyond this that I've forgotten, but - unless my memory's screwy on me - outsiders of certain power levels or higher pass their alignment traits on not only to their natural weapons but also any weapons they weild. And Big D and all his goons are certainly well above that threshold, even if I can't remember exactly where it's at.I just don't get what's so special about his greatsword? Unless I'm horribly missing something, it's just a +3 Greatsword.
Mainly it means that the P-boy can carve his way through the mini-onions of the Big D as well as fire off mass heal once or twice, provide the entire group a steady supply of holy auras, utter a holy word or two, deal handily with the multitude of negative levels, poisons and diseases *and* stand right behind the front rank of the party delivering a respectable supply of heal spells.
So it is in your baddies' best interests to vaporize the bugger pretty quick. ^_^
Mainly it means that the P-boy can carve his way through the mini-onions of the Big D as well as fire off mass heal once or twice
Which, conveniently, will nuke any undead in the burst zone. Of which the final showdown zone has plenty.
Don't think he'll make it till Wat Dagon. He still only has 133 HP and there are plenty of 20+ CR monsters that will make short work of them.
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I did the exact same thing with a planetar. So long as you use him as a mook-killer and healer / buffbot, he will keep largely out of danger. Add in the various team buffs we all throw around, and he's looking all the better.
If you use a called spellcasting outsider as a melee specialist, he's going to get pasted. Use him for spells, sla's, and the occasional coups de grace, and he'll shine!
Gate becomes more of an issue at the high levels, anyways.
-t
I can always say that demons hate celestial more than them and focus everything I got on him. :D Tactics isn't their better side, so I'm counting on them forgeting to cast Freedom of Movement on him so I'll have Redfang, Arendagrost or some such eat him.
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My group was much like Turins, all mad powerful and such. I equipped big D with Bracers of Relentless Might (Epic) and a Psychoactive skin of Iron (psionic). I also placed his general Belcheresk and Demodragon as help in the fight.
Unfortunately I ran the final encounter at 4am after strating EomE at 1pm. I was all kinds of wacked out of my mind and the fight was sort of a let-down. We should've called it outside of Wat Dagon and picked it up later but my players and I were stubborn.
--Jingle Bell Vrock!
I gave Demogorgon a bunch of items, active spells, and contingencies when I ran him for my ridiculously optimized group, but I think the most important thing I added was this epic spell:
Abjuration
Spellcraft DC: 56
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Personal
Area: 10-ft.-radius emanation
Duration: 24 hours
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: None
To Develop: 504,000 gp; 11 days, 20,160 XP. Seed: ward (DC 14). Factors: nullifies dispel magic (+6 DC), nullifies greater dispel magic (+10 DC), nullifies wall of dispel magic (+8 DC), nullifies wall of greater dispel magic (+14 DC), nullifies reaving dispel (+16 DC), increase CL by 15 (to 40, +30 DC). Mitigating factors: 20d6 backlash (-20 DC), Increase casting time to 10 minutes (-20 DC), reduce range to personal (-2 DC).You are completely immune to all spells of the dispel family.
Without it, they would have dispelled all of his protective spells and killed him in the first round. As it is, he lasted three.
Out of curiosity, was this epic spell your own creation or did it come from another source? (I coudldn't find it in the Epic Level Handbook.)
Sweet idea for an epic spell!
Another trick might work as well: He should cast antimagic field on himself :)
Another question for all those who DMed through Prince of Demons - how long does the invasion of Gaping Maw last? Do they have the time to rest in between encounters? Or it's all matter of hours?
Another question for all those who DMed through Prince of Demons - how long does the invasion of Gaping Maw last? Do they have the time to rest in between encounters? Or it's all matter of hours?
Under the Storming the Beach encounter's Development section reads "Once the PCs gain control of the bunker, Iggwilv's portal is relatively safe." and "This becomes a relatively safe place for the PCs to rest and recover, ..."
So it seems the as written intent is to provide a place to rest. I would think its best to play it by ear, I wouldn't want my players to enter Wat Dagon on full rest, neither would I want them to have expended all their resources before facing the Prince of Demons.
There's enough encounters in Wat Dagon to make them spend their resources before the final battle, it would be too much otherwise...
At this point your Clerics
Party cleric is a Half-Celestial so no 9th lvl spells for him.
faced Arendagrost, then headed towards Wat Dagon and it's defenders. Before entering Wat Dagon the Cleric used his Miracle to completely refresh the Party.
I'll remove Arendagrost since it's kind of a pointless encounter and it's in the campaign only to add a way to give Demogorgon NLs. Not to mention he's nowhere close to being a CR 23 creature, with his 2d8+14 and 2d6+7 attacks at 20th lvl. It will just be a grindfest, no need to waste time on that and I don't want Demogorgon to be that weak.
Your players might do something similar so if you want them to be prepared for Demo make sure you foreshadow a battle with him directly.
Well, that's kinda silly. The whole campaign is about Demogorgon, how the hell could they have assumed they were NOT going to fight him?
If this wasn't a published module, then that would probably happen that way. But since it is, and since we already played Shackled City and Age of Worms (where you fight against again a Demon Lord and A GOD, in pretty much the same way) it was kinda expected from the moment they found out about Demogorgon being behind it that it would end in that battle. And frankly it would have been a let down if that wasn't the case, since they're preparing for it for some time now.
And they didn't get to the part of forming an ACTUAL PLAN yet, btw.
Hm this is intriguing. My players like to avoid battle when possible, trying to resolve things with stealth and diplomacy when possible. Maybe they will aim for a sneaky solution, which I might let them get away with as I also enjoy this playstyle. On the other hand, Demogorgon is kind of a hobgoblin to them (the idiom not the monster) and I expect them to want to defeat him directly.
On Enemy of My Enemy now, but I keep expanding it and my players keep coming up with new possible allies, so it will be a while before we get to the end.
Well, my party tomorrow starts their trek towards Wat Dagon, they're all 20th lvl. They'll be facing Demogorgon with 6 Negative Levels, Belt of Magnificence, Ray Deflection, Unholy Aura, Protection from Good, Sheltered Vitality and Death Ward. I already rolled the Initiative for him and Gwynharwyf, and she won. Demogorgon will have Nulonga and a Balor with him.
The party is:
Artholor - Half-Elf Bard 15/Seeker of the Song 5
Ascard - Human Rogue 5/Ranger 2/Dervish 10/Tempest 3
Gimdin - Dwarf Druid 20
Khatran - Human Conjurer 5/Master Specialist 10/Archmage 5
Sergor - Human Transmuter 6/Swiftblade 10/Abjurant Champion 4
Sol - Half-Celestial Cleric 6/Radiant Servant of Pelor 10
With following buffs (unless otherswise noted on everyone in the party):
Artholor:
Inspire Courage +4
Inspire Greatness +2 (on himself, Ascard, Gimdin and Sergor)
Inspire Heroics (on Ascard and Sergor)
Admiral's Bicorne (+2 morale bonus on skill checks and saves)
Ascard:
Dervish Dance
Gimdin:
Aura of Vitality
Barkskin
Superior Resistance (himself, Ascard, Gimdin, Sergor)
Khatran:
Shield
Mind Blank
Spell Turning
Sergor
Heroics (Weapon Focus(Greathammer))
Greater Magic Weapon
Haste
Superior Resistance (on himself)
Overland Flight
Greater Enlarge Person
Stone Body
Spell Turning
With all that included, here are links to their statblocks:
He acquired Insectile template. I wanted to give each member of the party a boon similar to Malchanthet's Kiss, so I allowed the party to secure Obox-Ob's help in a diplomatic way and in return he wanted the soul of one party member (like he needed an excuse to attack Demogorgon), effectively preventing Resurrection and giving him the Insectile template.
Coincindentally, I'm playing a Transmuter in Shackled City. :D