Your touch can fill a creature with lethargy, causing a living creature to become staggered for 1 round as a melee touch attack.
You can touch a creature to learn about its abilities and weaknesses. With a successful touch attack, you gain ...
Is this a possible double whammy? One ability _is_ a melee touch attack and the second happens _with_ a touch attack.
Or is that just plain cheeze?
Sigurd
I would presume that you would have to make them as separate touch attacks. For the Knowledge domain, you are touching it to learn about its abilities and weaknesses, ie the touch attack is part of using the ability.
Also, from a flavour perspective, one presumes a Cleric would find it hard to mentally attune himself to both his domains' philosophies at the same time in order to channel their boons simultaneously.
Funny, I had always thought the Knowledge Domain Power was "it's own" touch attack, but the RAW reads otherwise. I actually see no problem with that ('riding' on another touch attack, e.g. Inflict), as I always thought that was a weak Domain ability if you had to get in melee range and use a Standard Action just to get this knowledge, when the default skill usage gives the exact same effect (at no action cost), albeit nigh-requiring you to max each Knowledge skill you want to use it for.
There's some benefit to the Domain ability's use of (primary) WIS vs. (secondary) INT) (though high INT/knowledge skills seem MUY flavor-appropriate for a Knowledge Domain Cleric), but the standard skill usage also benefits from the +3 Class Skill bonus (+Traits, Feats, etc), so it sort of balances out... Especially since the actual skills let you figure out the weakness of a known enemy and prepare for them BEFORE you come into melee range. Knowing that the vile enemy would be toast IF ONLY you had memorized X spell isn't really that useful.
I've always liked the flavor/concept of Knowledge Domain Clerics, and their bonus spells are nice, but I doubt I would ever have used the Touch ability for the above reasons. This actually makes it so I would be inclined to use it with at least semi-frequency. Cool.
So you can see my question?
btw. I'm not accepting any sort of conflict between domains as an argument. The Cleric must have the two domains in relative harmony to exist.
My question is really about the knowledge touch. Does it need to be its own attack, achieving ....?..... or can it be a bonus on a different successful touch attack?
Sigurd
Activating a spell-like ability is always a standard action unless specifically stated otherwise.
Activating a spell-like ability is always a standard action unless specifically stated otherwise.
So that is confusing.
Round = Standard Action & Move Action
Successful Touch Attack, Activate Spell-Like Ability, Move Action. That would seem to be too many actions.
Also looking at all the domain abilities, Knowledge is unique in its wording and in its outcome. The outcome is personal knowledge the success of which cannot by itself impede anyone else.
*** Lore Keeper (Sp): You can touch a creature to learn about its abilities and weaknesses. With a successful touch attack, you gain information as if you made the appropriate Knowledge skill check with a result equal to 15 + your cleric level + your Wisdom modifier.
It has no language about holding a charge or description about the details of the "successful touch attack". No other power omits this information. If the power was part of the touch attack presumably it would be wasted if the attack was unsuccessful.
Can another power be a successful touch attack - yes.
The game logic is sound too. How many players would give up the chance to impair a monster simply to learn about it.
I'm growing more convinced.
Sigurd
I'd love a more official answer.
I read them as needing to be two separate spell like abilities that both need a standard action and both invoke an AoO to perform. They just put the wording in two separate sentences but it's still the same thing for Gentle Rest and Lore Keeper. I have noticed that Paizo does not like repeating itself with descriptions of the same action.
That is the conservative way of reading it. I don't have a problem with that.
I don't think this is just writing style however. _Every_ other touch power attack is clear to say _as_ a move action. This says _with_ a successful action and doesn't specify the terms of that action.
If I rewrite the power as "With a successful swing of your sword, you gain an insight into the monster." Do you assume the sword does no damage or do you grant that the sword can be modified and buffed normally?
I think that the knowledge power occurs as an Immediate Action on top of your Standard Action attack. In the first example Gentle Touch is that Standard Action. How fast does memory work?
I'm with you Sigurd.
It isn't written like EVERY OTHER ability/spell that uses "their own" touch attack.
All the rest SOME HOW manage a large amount of consistency, but this one is supposed to mysteriously NOT?
What does it for me is that the ability actually "works" now, as opposed to being cosmic crap without it. I mean - Knowledge Check? Those things that you can do for free while Full Attacking your heart away?
Hint: Don't use terms like "Immediate Action":
It actually means something specific (Immediate = Your next Swift).
The effect is essentially a "rider", i.e. not an action at all, no different than an ability allowing you to do CON damage on top of normal melee attacks, or a free bullrush on top of an attack.
...It would be nice to get feedback from Jason on this that this was his intent, mainly because it sailed over my head when *I* read it, but it actually works great this way.