Dual Wielding Whip + Flail

[VanceMadrox]

I'm working on a build for a Fighter who uses TWF with a Whip and s Flail. (I know neither is a light weapon).

The question is Combat Maneuvers.

Assuming the character has multiple attacks with each weapon (6th level +) what factors actually affect the attacks he uses for his iterative attacks?

As I understand it, for his second attack with each weapon the BAB is 5 lower so this would apply to his CMB. (5 lower than his 1st).

I can't see anything that says that the TWF fighting penalties would apply to any Combat Manuevers he does though as they're based solely on CMB.

Can anyone help clarify?

[The Grandfather]

VanceMadrox wrote:

I'm working on a build for a Fighter who uses TWF with a Whip and s Flail. (I know neither is a light weapon).

The question is Combat Maneuvers.

Assuming the character has multiple attacks with each weapon (6th level +) what factors actually affect the attacks he uses for his iterative attacks?

As I understand it, for his second attack with each weapon the BAB is 5 lower so this would apply to his CMB. (5 lower than his 1st).

I can't see anything that says that the TWF fighting penalties would apply to any Combat Manuevers he does though as they're based solely on CMB.

Can anyone help clarify?

CMB is based on your attack bonus. As iterative attacks are reduced at increments of five, so are the iterative CM attacks-

[VanceMadrox]

Thanks, that confirms what I thought regarding the BAB on iterative attacks.

What about the TWF penalties?

CMB is only based on BAB, the TWF penalties apply to attacks only, not the BAB so as I understand it there's no penalty for using 2 weapons to do combat maneuvers.

[Kolokotroni]

VanceMadrox wrote:

Thanks, that confirms what I thought regarding the BAB on iterative attacks.

What about the TWF penalties?

CMB is only based on BAB, the TWF penalties apply to attacks only, not the BAB so as I understand it there's no penalty for using 2 weapons to do combat maneuvers.

That is a little less clear, the rules do say any bonuses you get to attacks with a weapon apply to manuevers made with that weapon, i dont think it mentions penalties.

[Rake]

Is that really how it works? Maneuvers based on iterative attacks incur the iterative penalties? What's the source on this ruling?

[The Grandfather]

Rake wrote:

Is that really how it works? Maneuvers based on iterative attacks incur the iterative penalties? What's the source on this ruling?

The explanation of CMB calculation in the PRPG.

[The Grandfather]

VanceMadrox wrote:

Thanks, that confirms what I thought regarding the BAB on iterative attacks.

What about the TWF penalties?

CMB is only based on BAB, the TWF penalties apply to attacks only, not the BAB so as I understand it there's no penalty for using 2 weapons to do combat maneuvers.

TWF penalties apply to CMB as well.

[VanceMadrox]

What's the source on the TWF answer?

The CMB section mentions bonuses but not penalties.

As a GM I'd probably rule the TWF penalties apply but I don't see it in RAW

[The Grandfather]

VanceMadrox wrote:

What's the source on the TWF answer?

The CMB section mentions bonuses but not penalties.

As a GM I'd probably rule the TWF penalties apply but I don't see it in RAW

Correct. I am refering to the CMB section.

It would not make sense to apply bonuses and not penalties. It should have read "modifiers".
Logic also dictates that it is easier to complete a combat maneuver when wielding a single weapon.

[Kakarasa]

The Grandfather wrote:

VanceMadrox wrote:

What's the source on the TWF answer?

The CMB section mentions bonuses but not penalties.

As a GM I'd probably rule the TWF penalties apply but I don't see it in RAW

Correct. I am refering to the CMB section.

It would not make sense to apply bonuses and not penalties. It should have read "modifiers".
Logic also dictates that it is easier to complete a combat maneuver when wielding a single weapon.

I agree it'd be nice to have an errata, but at this point it's just too late I think. The unwritten rule obviously is that a non-positive integer is a penalty, a non-negative integer is a bonus, and an integer that can be either is a modifier. It didn't get to be addressed as a modifier because the base attack bonus is, well... a bonus. Abilities like TWF and Flurry add on penalties with use, but the BAB is still a non-negative integer. Even the monk's "flurry of blows attack bonus" at first level -1/-1 is still a BAB of +1 with a -2 TWF penalty.

I guess what I'm driving at is there's little luck getting the wording changed to manuever even though you're right, but in my character sheet project, I will be refering to it as Combat Maneuver Base as it is modified by feats and circumstances. Combat Manuever Modifier is CMM, and the CMB is already too far entrenched to change IMO.

It's too bad that the whip dagger isn't open content, but a bunch of variants could be made.

[Kermit-D-Frog]

This is how I see the Combat Maneuver Check being calculated when the combat maneuver is part of an attack action ie using a whip/flail to trip, shield bash/shield slam etc.

Combat Maneuver Check = Attack roll + 2 Improved Trip Feat

Roll your attack normally to hit your opponent. This attack will include all of your bonuses and negatives to attack. For example a 6th level fighter may look like this:

Two weapon fighting using a flail (one handed) a sickle (light) -2 to attack while dual wielding
weapon focus flail +1 attack
weapon training flails +1 attack
+2 enchantment bonus on the flail
+3 enchantment bonus on the sickle.

The attacks for each weapon would be as follows

Flail: +8/+3
Sickle: +7/+2

If the fighter is rolling his attacks against a group of Skum (This hunchbacked, green-skinned humanoid has a wide, frog-like head but a mouth more akin to that of a toothy fish.) from the Pathfinder Bestiary. Their AC is 13 and their Combat Maneuver Defense is 15.

Let's say his rolls are 15 and 9 for his flail and 12 and 11 for his sickle. His final attack rolls adding his attack bonuses are 23/12 for his flail, 19/13 for his sickle. Roll damage for your attacks.

Use the final attack rolls with the attack bonus applied for your Combat Maneuver Check (23/12 and 19/13) and add the +2 from your Improved Trip feat. The final numbers are 25 for the flail attack that hit and 21/15 for the sicle attacks. In this case all of the attacks that scored a hit also tripped the Skum. The attack that missed did not have a chance to trip.