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We got the Bestiary, and lo and behold I got wrangled into running a monster PC game, in addition to the RotRL game I am already running! I think I have a pretty good handle on how the monsters-as-PCs rules work, but have hit a bit of a snag with one.
One of the players wishes to play a were-bear. According to the rules presented in the Bestiary, the CR is equal to either the base creature, or the base animal, +1. So if this player wants to be a were-grizzly, that sets the CR at 5, assuming his base form is human. Add one level of barbarian, and we have a level 6 character according to the monster PC rules.
But wait... how many hit dice does he have? The two examples in the Bestiary used animals with equal or less HD than the base 2nd level characters, so they worked out fine. But would this first level barbarian have only a single d12 hit die, but count as a 6th level character? There is nothing in the lycanthrope description about gaining any of the animal's hit dice, so I am somewhat at a loss as to how to adjudicate this. Thoughts?
I think u understood it wrong. The CR is +1.
And since he is a Barbarian 1 (I assume) his CR would be +2
The "Base Creature" is the Human. And his lycantrope transformation has nothing to do with the stats of the Grizzly.
They completely gutted the old lycanthropy rules. A werebear and a werepenguin and a were-T-Rex are effectively the same now, save for movement speeds in animal form.
And lycanthropy does not apply any hit die anymore; just fixed stat mods and other bonuses. In 3.5 terms, it's the equivalent of an LA+1 template with no hit die.
A werebear and a werepenguin and a were-T-Rex are effectively the same now, save for movement speeds in animal form.
The natural attacks in hybrid/animal form are different, too. Likewise for special attacks (e.g. grab or swallow whole).
How are yall coming to that conclusion? It says in the CR entry for the Lycanthrope introduction that a created Lycanthrope has a CR equal to "Same as base creature or base animal (in this case Grizzly bear - CR 4) whichever is higher +1". This would suggest to me that the CR for this guy would be 4 (Grizzly bear) + 1 (barbarian) + 1 (Lycan template) = 6.
This does seem to leave the character horribly short on hp, though.
I think this should probably be filed under the often-touted "Beastiary monsters were not intended to be played as PC's" line from the developers.
Possible solution... just use the stats of a werewolf and call it a werebear? It side-steps the mechanical issues, gives useable boosts to stats, and leaves him with a useable CR.
It's what i'd do, anyway.
Of course, i'm open to begin wrong about the CR thing, but that's what my Beastiary seems to say. Open to clarifications by sharper minds.
How are yall coming to that conclusion? It says in the CR entry for the Lycanthrope introduction that a created Lycanthrope has a CR equal to "Same as base creature or base animal (in this case Grizzly bear - CR 4) whichever is higher +1". This would suggest to me that the CR for this guy would be 4 (Grizzly bear) + 1 (barbarian) + 1 (Lycan template) = 6.
This does seem to leave the character horribly short on hp, though.
You're right -- the suggested Challenge Rating is messed up if the base form and the animal form don't have a similar CR to begin with.
You're right -- the suggested Challenge Rating is messed up if the base form and the animal form don't have a similar CR to begin with.How are yall coming to that conclusion? It says in the CR entry for the Lycanthrope introduction that a created Lycanthrope has a CR equal to "Same as base creature or base animal (in this case Grizzly bear - CR 4) whichever is higher +1". This would suggest to me that the CR for this guy would be 4 (Grizzly bear) + 1 (barbarian) + 1 (Lycan template) = 6.
This does seem to leave the character horribly short on hp, though.
Actually, it should be 5. The CR for X class levels is X - 1. So, it would be CR 4 (bear) + 1 (Lycanthrope) + 1/2 (Barbarian) = 5.5, or 5 (no rounding up for this one). Just as a level 6 Barbarian would be a CR 5.
Edit : The problem I have with the way lycanthropy works now, is it doesn't make sense. In that, part of the bears CR is coming from his hit dice, not just his stat adjustments. The problem is, that isn't taken into account. You'd almost have to use the 'Advancing a Monster' rules to reduce his CR based on the fact he's losing hit dice (the rules are there to do it). So you'd pick his new hitpoints (12+con for first level barbarian), then reduce his CR based on the loss of hit dice based on the chart in the back of the book. Take the new CR, add one to it, and that's his CR as a first level barbarian.
That's not gonna use any User-Friendliness awards.
That's not gonna use any User-Friendliness awards.
Nope, it's a mathematical nightmare. On the bright side, you only have to do it once per were creature.
(Adds another section to the list of Pathfinder rules than need houseruling)
How are yall coming to that conclusion? It says in the CR entry for the Lycanthrope introduction that a created Lycanthrope has a CR equal to "Same as base creature or base animal (in this case Grizzly bear - CR 4) whichever is higher +1". This would suggest to me that the CR for this guy would be 4 (Grizzly bear) + 1 (barbarian) + 1 (Lycan template) = 6.
Interesting. Just ignore the "or the base animal" part, since it's just... wrong, with regards to power.
You don't actually get anything from one animal versus another, save some movement speeds and natural attacks. You don't get much more from being a werelion than from being a wereraccoon. The lion has lots of hit points and big stats, sure, but you don't get hit points and stats. You could be a werehousecat and still get that +2 str, +2 con, +2 wis, -2 cha, same as for a wereT-Rex. Just base it entirely on the humanoid.
Also, mind that Pathfinder doesn't actually have rules for monster race PCs. It explicitly says it's directly subject to DM judgment. And if you look at what the character actually gets, +1 or +2, tops, makes sense.
You don't actually get anything from one animal versus another, save some movement speeds and natural attacks. You don't get much more from being a werelion than from being a wereraccoon. The lion has lots of hit points and big stats, sure, but you don't get hit points and stats. You could be a werehousecat and still get that +2 str, +2 con, +2 wis, -2 cha, same as for a wereT-Rex. Just base it entirely on the humanoid.
I don't believe this is completely correct. While you don't get any additional hps from the base creature, you do gain their physical stats, if they are greater than those of the base creature +2. So, some of the more powerful base creatures provide huge benefits, and this is where the power issue comes from.
I don't believe this is completely correct. While you don't get any additional hps from the base creature, you do gain their physical stats, if they are greater than those of the base creature +2. So, some of the more powerful base creatures provide huge benefits, and this is where the power issue comes from.
*Checks.*
Hm. Missed that. Eh, just toss it out and you're fine.
Have you considered using the Bear from the Druid animal companion as the base, instead of a grizzly bear?
At 4th level they get a full grown brown or black bear. This is a medium sized bear with the following stat adjustments in bear form :
Str +8
Dex +2
Con +6
Wis +2
Cha -4
Obviously Int wouldn't change between forms. It get's a +2 natural armor, rage as a barbarian (6 rounds per day, added onto the barbarians raging, I'd guess), scent, and low-light. Much less powerful than the grizzly, but also a medium sized creature.
A grizzly is a CR 4, I'd say a brown/black bear is a CR 3 with 4 hit dice. And probably a 2 with the hit die gone.
That'd make your lycanthrope black bear guy with one level of barbarian a CR3, one hit-die creature. So he'd be ok to let in with a group of 3rd level characters (per the bestiary). He'd only have one class level of hit dice, but, that would be 12+con+1 for favored class, call it 16. That's not bad for a 3rd level character, and survivable, he'll just have to be more careful than the average barbarian. Then again, having 5 or 10/silver DR helps a LOT. I'm assuming he's a born, so that should be 10/silver. That makes him surivable if nobody knows what he is.
Holy legumes, Batman -- just reading that made me roll a save vs. bureaucracy. How on earth did something this non-intuitive get through the editing process?
Actually, it should be 5. The CR for X class levels is X - 1. So, it would be CR 4 (bear) + 1 (Lycanthrope) + 1/2 (Barbarian) = 5.5, or 5 (no rounding up for this one). Just as a level 6 Barbarian would be a CR 5.
Edit : The problem I have with the way lycanthropy works now, is it doesn't make sense. In that, part of the bears CR is coming from his hit dice, not just his stat adjustments. The problem is, that isn't taken into account. You'd almost have to use the 'Advancing a Monster' rules to reduce his CR based on the fact he's losing hit dice (the rules are there to do it). So you'd pick his new hitpoints (12+con for first level barbarian), then reduce his CR based on the loss of hit dice based on the chart in the back of the book. Take the new CR, add one to it, and that's his CR as a first level barbarian.
It comes down to the fact that monstrous PC's are tough to balance. Add on to that fact that they couldn't come up with a complete set of rules for it just for the bestiary, and you get a so so method of using it. It works ok for creating monstrous enemies, but fails for monstrous PC's.
On top of that, Jason and James are self expressed believers in not expanding the player races to monster PC's or additional races, and this is the work around until Paizo can shake loose the resources (and the right resources, which means someone who is jazzed about monstrous PC's and additional races) and there's a big enough request from people with $$'s on the forums to convince them the effort is worth it and you have an idea of why this is the current work around, and that if we're lucky, we might, might, see a races book in 2011, but more likely 2012.
How are yall coming to that conclusion? It says in the CR entry for the Lycanthrope introduction that a created Lycanthrope has a CR equal to "Same as base creature or base animal (in this case Grizzly bear - CR 4) whichever is higher +1". This would suggest to me that the CR for this guy would be 4 (Grizzly bear) + 1 (barbarian) + 1 (Lycan template) = 6.Interesting. Just ignore the "or the base animal" part, since it's just... wrong, with regards to power.
You don't actually get anything from one animal versus another, save some movement speeds and natural attacks. You don't get much more from being a werelion than from being a wereraccoon. The lion has lots of hit points and big stats, sure, but you don't get hit points and stats. You could be a werehousecat and still get that +2 str, +2 con, +2 wis, -2 cha, same as for a wereT-Rex. Just base it entirely on the humanoid.
I sorta like this in at least one respect: the afflicted baker turns into a weretiger during the full moon and savages a whole building, waking up in a pile of blood in the morning.
As for the stat mods, yeah... they get messed up for PCs, but for NPCs they'll always be appropriate as long as they're fighting in their most powerful form-- hence the stat bonuses.
Basically, if you throw werebear on a lvl 1 pc he's going to be a CR5 bear for the first 4 levels, and just kill everything unfairly, since bear is his best form. He's also a lvl 1 character with 5 or 10 silver DR, despite his 15 hitpoints... that would bump him to 3 or 4CR in my book, needless to say that he can also be a BEAR at first level and just kill everything. and rage. AND move fast.
If i was to balance it, I would give him DR 5/silver, stat mods, and +1 CR and never let him turn into a FULL bear. And anybody's who's heard his name on the lips of a dying comrade will start buying up silver like crazy.
I am currently running LoF using PFRPG rules. I did the set-piece from HotCK, and one of my players contracted lycanthropy from Haidar the wereleopard. (It's a little vague whether that can happen, since Haidar has stats as though he's an afflicted lycanthrope, but his stat block says he has curse of lycanthropy, and the adventure also specifically mentions that PCs could contract lycanthropy from him.) My player hasn't transformed yet, but here's my interpretation:
Base creature is a human 5 rogue, CR 4.
Base animal is a tiger (katapeshi leopard), CR 4.
Thus, the new character will be CR 5, and I need to hold him back a level to keep him even with the rest of the party.
Check the werewolf to see that this is the "official" way to calculate it:
Base creature is human fighter 2, CR 1
Animal is wolf, CR 1.
Add 1 for lycanthrope: CR 2
This is not CR 1 for wolf, +1 for lycanthrope, +2 for 2 levels of fighter, which would be CR 4.
I don't know what this means for a character who is actually gaining levels. If he started out as Weretiger rogue 1 (CR 5), he wouldn't actually increase his CR until he got to rogue 6. Maybe that just means Weretiger rogue 1 is not a good character to build.
Anyway, in human form, my player gets +2 wis, -2 cha. That sucks for a +1 LA.
However, he will eventually become aware of his nature and learn to transform on purpose. He's already CN, and I doubt the drop to CE will stop him, even though I plan on making him murder his sister (another PC who is leaving the group).
At that point, in hybrid form, he gains:
Large size
DR 5/silver
+5 Natural armor
+14 Str, +4 Dex, +8 Con
Bite, 2 claws and rake, with 3 free grab attempts on a full attack
Pounce
Some skill bonuses, including stealth.
That is too much for a +1 LA. In particular, a bonus to stealth, pounce for 5 attacks, and sneak attack dice combine to make a world of hurt for one enemy in each encounter. The fact that he won't get all of that for several levels, while he figures out that he is a lycanthrope and control his powers, doesn't mean he's any less overpowered at level 8.
There are various roleplaying ways to reduce the benefits, and he may end up cured. But I'm trying to figure out a crunchy way to do it too.
One thing I thought of is, instead of giving him the ability bonuses from the tiger, give him the actual ability scores of the average tiger. He already has 16 Str, 18 Dex, and 12 Con. A tiger has 23 Str, 15 Dex, 17 Con. Add the Str & Con bonuses, that gives a hybrid with 25 Str, 18 Dex*, 19 Con. Compared to his human form, that's +9 Str, +7 Con. Still pretty beefy for a +1 LA, especially including pounce and rake, NA, and DR.
*But, since he's now large, does he get -2 dex? I say yes.
It's very hard to really look at. Consider a werebear. A standard half-orc fighter can have 20 strength and 17 constitution right at level 1 if he throws away two other stats - which, as a pure fighter, he probably could and would do. A werebear half-orc loses 4 levels in order to gain...21 strength and 19 constitution, and +2 strength and constitution.
To top it off, that 21 and 19 doesn't scale. At level 4, the half-orc now matches his strength perfectly between forms. In other words, once you hit level 4 - or rather, level eight for you - you've thrown away four levels in order to gain +2 strength and +4 constitution.
That's a pretty terrible deal.
But my weretiger player hasn't given up four levels; just one, because his base CR is the same as the CR of a tiger; the template CR is 1 + whichever is higher. How to deal with this for a natural lycanthrope starting at level one is ambiguous, but I think it's clear that an afflicted lycanthrope uses all of their class levels when determining the CR of the "base creature."
I've decided to house-rule that an afflicted lycanthrope in hybrid form cannot speak and can only make skill checks available to an animal or a raging barbarian. That wouldn't stop abuse by a barbarian, but it means the rogue in my campaign won't be able to walk around all the time in hybrid form and still pick locks, disable traps, plan strategy, etc. If he has to spend one or more full-round actions during combat in order to assume hybrid form, and could end up stuck that way, unable to do rogue stuff, then he won't be using it in every fight, and he doesn't overshadow the rest of the party.
The CR for a were grizzly bear is this.
Treat the monster's CR as its total class levels
Bear CR 4 +1 for lycan template = 5
Note that in a mixed group, the value of racial Hit Dice and abilities diminish as a character gains levels. It is recommended that for every 3 levels gained by the group, the monster character should gain an extra level, received halfway between the 2nd and 3rd levels. Repeat this process a number of times equal to half the monster's CR, rounded down. Using the minotaur example, when the group is at a point between 6th and 7th level, the minotaur gains a level, and then again at 7th, making him a minotaur barbarian 4. This process repeats at 10th level, making him a minotaur barbarian 8 when the group reaches 10th level. From that point onward, he gains levels normally.
HD 5 from bear gives -1 CR due to HD counting as class levels.
So you need to be a minimum of a level 10 character to start as a were grizzly bear. When the character reaches level 1 the CR will drop by 1 leaving the character with an equivalent level adjust of 4.
Also note this:
Note that in a mixed group, the value of racial Hit Dice and abilities diminish as a character gains levels. It is recommended that for every 3 levels gained by the group, the monster character should gain an extra level, received halfway between the 2nd and 3rd levels. Repeat this process a number of times equal to half the monster's CR, rounded down. Using the minotaur example, when the group is at a point between 6th and 7th level, the minotaur gains a level, and then again at 7th, making him a minotaur barbarian 4. This process repeats at 10th level, making him a minotaur barbarian 8 when the group reaches 10th level. From that point onward, he gains levels normally.
What you say is accurate regarding the d20 Lycanthrope template, but the PF template is different. It does not give any animal hit dice to lycanthropes. Again, look at the werewolf and wererat: their hit dice are simply the hit dice of a 2nd level fighter and 2nd level rogue, respectively. Their CRs are the CRs of a 2nd level fighter and 2nd level rogue, both +1.
For a newly made character, I would interpret this to mean that, if you can afford the CR 5 character to play a weretiger, then go ahead and give it 5 class levels too, because that doesn't change the CR. I do think this means that the larger lycanthropes are overpowered, especially if you give the player the racial ability bonuses in hybrid form, rather than just the racial ability scores. +1 level in exchange for +14 Str, +4 Dex +8 Con, +4 Wis, -2 Cha as a weretiger? And I can still pass as human in social situations? Yes, please. DR 10/silver is just gravy.
In the name of uniformity, we should bind lycanthropy and wild shape rules together, shouldn't we?
What you say is accurate regarding the d20 Lycanthrope template, but the PF template is different. It does not give any animal hit dice to lycanthropes. Again, look at the werewolf and wererat: their hit dice are simply the hit dice of a 2nd level fighter and 2nd level rogue, respectively. Their CRs are the CRs of a 2nd level fighter and 2nd level rogue, both +1.
For a newly made character, I would interpret this to mean that, if you can afford the CR 5 character to play a weretiger, then go ahead and give it 5 class levels too, because that doesn't change the CR. I do think this means that the larger lycanthropes are overpowered, especially if you give the player the racial ability bonuses in hybrid form, rather than just the racial ability scores. +1 level in exchange for +14 Str, +4 Dex +8 Con, +4 Wis, -2 Cha as a weretiger? And I can still pass as human in social situations? Yes, please. DR 10/silver is just gravy.
I completely over looked that.
Have you considered using the Bear from the Druid animal companion as the base, instead of a grizzly bear?
At 4th level they get a full grown brown or black bear. This is a medium sized bear with the following stat adjustments in bear form :
Str +8
Dex +2
Con +6
Wis +2
Cha -4Obviously Int wouldn't change between forms. It get's a +2 natural armor, rage as a barbarian (6 rounds per day, added onto the barbarians raging, I'd guess), scent, and low-light. Much less powerful than the grizzly, but also a medium sized creature.
A grizzly is a CR 4, I'd say a brown/black bear is a CR 3 with 4 hit dice. And probably a 2 with the hit die gone.
That'd make your lycanthrope black bear guy with one level of barbarian a CR3, one hit-die creature. So he'd be ok to let in with a group of 3rd level characters (per the bestiary). He'd only have one class level of hit dice, but, that would be 12+con+1 for favored class, call it 16. That's not bad for a 3rd level character, and survivable, he'll just have to be more careful than the average barbarian. Then again, having 5 or 10/silver DR helps a LOT. I'm assuming he's a born, so that should be 10/silver. That makes him surivable if nobody knows what he is.
umm the int, wi, and cha stats dont change, just the physical ones, the brain stays the same......how the cha stays i dont know, you would be reaaallly intimidating at 9ft tall with pointy teeth, and a mack truck for a body though