So I was thinking about a question that somebody else asked here, and it got me to thinking about combat maneuvers while mounted.
After scouring the pfsrd, I still don't have an answer to this question:
If a mounted character uses a combat maneuver, does he use his CMB or his mount's?
In particular I'm interested in the overrun maneuver. You're clearly supposed to be able to use this maneuver while mounted, since the Trample feat is triggered by it. In a similar vein, would you be treated as your size or your mount's size for the purpose of combat maneuvers made while mounted? I could see a rationale for it either way, so what I'm interested in is not a houserule or opinion, but textual support for one side or the other. Basically I want to know if this is ever addressed in the game.
If a mounted character uses a combat maneuver, does he use his CMB or his mount's?
The mount's CMB. Thus an average person will benefit from riding a mount when attempting to overrun or bull-rush a target.
In general the rider is only as good as his mount is and druids, rangers and paladins will therefore be better at mounted maneuvers than most other characters.In order to improve mounted maneuvers I woulæd allow my players to take specialized feats, i.e. Mounted Maneuver Affinity (+2 to all mounted maneuvers and prerequisite to more specialized mounted combat feats), Mounted Overrun (+2 to mounted overrun attemts and provokes no AoO), etc.
The mount's CMB. Thus an average person will benefit from riding a mount when attempting to overrun or bull-rush a target.
Where does it say this?
EDIT: For anybody interested, I found this tucked away in the Special Attacks section of the 3.5 SRD, under Overrun.
If you attempt an overrun while mounted, your mount makes the Strength check to determine the success or failure of the overrun attack (and applies its size modifier, rather than yours). If you have the Trample feat and attempt an overrun while mounted, your target may not choose to avoid you, and if you knock your opponent prone with the overrun, your mount may make one hoof attack against your opponent.
Note that this was in 3.5, where the overrun was simply a Strength check. In Pathfinder it's a combat maneuver, which takes Base Attack Bonus into account. This means that the mount's overrun check would probably be much worse than the rider's, as opposed to 3.5 where the mount's overrun check would probably be better both because of its mandatory larger size and presumably higher Strength score. In any case, this text was clipped away when the Overrun ability was rewritten for Pathfinder. The Trample feat remains referring to the maneuver, but the basic mechanics for it seem to have disappeared.
Anybody else have thoughts on this?
The mount's CMB. Thus an average person will benefit from riding a mount when attempting to overrun or bull-rush a target.Where does it say this?
EDIT: For anybody interested, I found this tucked away in the Special Attacks section of the 3.5 SRD, under Overrun.
If you attempt an overrun while mounted, your mount makes the Strength check to determine the success or failure of the overrun attack (and applies its size modifier, rather than yours). If you have the Trample feat and attempt an overrun while mounted, your target may not choose to avoid you, and if you knock your opponent prone with the overrun, your mount may make one hoof attack against your opponent.Note that this was in 3.5, where the overrun was simply a Strength check. In Pathfinder it's a combat maneuver, which takes Base Attack Bonus into account. This means that the mount's overrun check would probably be much worse than the rider's, as opposed to 3.5 where the mount's overrun check would probably be better both because of its mandatory larger size and presumably higher Strength score. In any case, this text was clipped away when the Overrun ability was rewritten for Pathfinder. The Trample feat remains referring to the maneuver, but the basic mechanics for it seem to have disappeared.
Anybody else have thoughts on this?
Again the rider is only as good as his mount.
Again the rider is only as good as his mount.The mount's CMB. Thus an average person will benefit from riding a mount when attempting to overrun or bull-rush a target.Where does it say this?
EDIT: For anybody interested, I found this tucked away in the Special Attacks section of the 3.5 SRD, under Overrun.
If you attempt an overrun while mounted, your mount makes the Strength check to determine the success or failure of the overrun attack (and applies its size modifier, rather than yours). If you have the Trample feat and attempt an overrun while mounted, your target may not choose to avoid you, and if you knock your opponent prone with the overrun, your mount may make one hoof attack against your opponent.Note that this was in 3.5, where the overrun was simply a Strength check. In Pathfinder it's a combat maneuver, which takes Base Attack Bonus into account. This means that the mount's overrun check would probably be much worse than the rider's, as opposed to 3.5 where the mount's overrun check would probably be better both because of its mandatory larger size and presumably higher Strength score. In any case, this text was clipped away when the Overrun ability was rewritten for Pathfinder. The Trample feat remains referring to the maneuver, but the basic mechanics for it seem to have disappeared.
Anybody else have thoughts on this?
Okay, but where does it actually say that?
Okay, but where does it actually say that?
If you do not want to go by the 3.5 SRD, then let me put it another way:
What ability or feat does your character have that enables him to conduct combat maneuvers on behalf of his mount.If you overrun when siting on a horse it is the horses strength and agresiveness that does the difference. You can argue that a particularly trained rider can improve his mounts chance of success, but that is what the animal companion ability represents or what you could accomplish by introducing feats like the ones I previously suggested.
As 3.5 PRPG is a game with a set of basic rules and a ton of exceptions. A rider making a CM check in stead of his mount would be such an exception. Since it is nowhere in the rules we must go by the basic rule; i.e. each creature makes its own attack rolls.
Related question: If you attempt an Overrun while mounted, and the rider has Improved Overrun but the mount does not, does the mount still provoke, or does the rider's feat also protect the mount? If it does provoke, I assume that only the mount can be attacked with the AoO?
I've seen this go back and forth on a number of threads. If it's not too outdated, WotC covered mounted combat indepth in their Rules of the Game. They devoted around 6 editions to just mounted combat, and this material's still on their website.
Otherwise, we're just waiting on official errata. There's some stuff about Combat Training that needs cleaned, too, and clarified.
I haven't checked the Bestiary 2, but it might have some material in it.
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When you are mounted, it is the mount which is using its actions to move or to charge, not the rider (CRB, page 202).
Since the Overrun combat maneuver must be taken "during your move or as part of a charge" (CRB, page 201), only the mount can do it and not the rider.
If the rider has Improved Overrun, he will not benefit from it since he is not the one doing the Overrun. Of course, neither will the mount.
If the mount has Improved Overrun, it will benefit from it, but, by RAW, the rider will not. Note however that the rider is not exposed to an AoO from trying an Overrun, since it is the mount who does the attempt. However, the rider will provoke an AoO when he will move out of a threatened square, including when he (and his mount) move into the target's space.