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Dear all,
my group and I are a bit confused by the paladin's powers mentioned in the subject, and my players insisted that I ask for clarification on the boards regarding all the hazy points, so that we understand both the rules and - hopefully - the rationale behind them.
1. SMITE EVIL
About "Smite Evil" (pag. 60). The description says that the damage is added to "all damage rolls". Is that really so, or does it only apply to weapon damage?
If a paladin/sorceress uses a ray of frost, will the smite evil bonus add to that as well? Will it add as frost damage, or as "generic" damage?
1b.
Can the paladin add the Smite Evil damage to the damage inflicted to an undead by means of his/her Lay on Hands power?
2. SMITE EVIL
"Regardless of the target, smite evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess"
Do the "smite evil attacks" include only the smite evil damage proper (i.e. 1 or 2 damage per paladin's level) or the whole damage of the attack?
Example: if my 5th level paladin smites evil *with a normal sword* on an undead with DR 20/magic, do I inflict also the 1d8+STR of the sword, or only the 10 damages (2 x 5th level) of the smite evil power?
3. AURA OF JUSTICE
"[...] grant the ability of smite evil to all allies within 10 feet"
Do they need to remain within 10 feet for the whole duration of the effect (1 minute), or after they are affected from the 10 feet burst they can also move around?
4. AURA OF JUSTICE
"to all allies within 10 feet"
Does the ability affect also the paladin himself or only the allies?
Somebody has observed that the paladin should most likely be considered an ally of himself, but I am not sure I am going to buy that...
5. AURA OF JUSTICE
"Allies must use this smite evil ability by the start of the paladin's next turn and the bonuses last for 1 minute".
Ok, this sounds confusing: allies *MUST* use the ability? Is that really compulsory or they can still change their mind and choose not to use it by suffering some negative consequence (such as "no bonuses", I suppose)?
This is our interpretation of the ability, please correct us if we are wrong:
Once the paladin uses the aura of justice, each affected ally has time up to the paladin's next round to "activate" the bonuses by means of a swift action (as per the "smite evil" power). Activating means choosing one target within sight to smite. After that is done, the bonuses are applied for 1 minute.
However, if the ally does not "activate" the bonuses within that round (because he is prevented from using that swift action, or because for some reason he *chooses* not to use it) than the bonuses are lost to him.
5b.
Can each ally affected by the "Aura of Justice" target a different enemy? (I think it would be more appropriate if the paladin were in charge of choosing the common target, but anyway...)
Thank you in advance to everybody who will be so kind to provide help and clarifications.
A et al.
1. SMITE EVIL
About "Smite Evil" (pag. 60). The description says that the damage is added to "all damage rolls". Is that really so, or does it only apply to weapon damage?
Will it add as frost damage, or as "generic" damage?
Raw it applies to any spell that has an attack roll, but I don't know if that was the intent. As to the damage type I would saying using sneak attack as precedence the damage will be the same as the spell, but I am not sure for that that answer.
1b.Can the paladin add the Smite Evil damage to the damage inflicted to an undead by means of his/her Lay on Hands power?
By the rules yes, but I am 99.9% sure it was only intended for weapons. the problem is this instance involves an attacks roll.
2. SMITE EVIL
"Regardless of the target, smite evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess"
Do the "smite evil attacks" include only the smite evil damage proper (i.e. 1 or 2 damage per paladin's level) or the whole damage of the attack?
Example: if my 5th level paladin smites evil *with a normal sword* on an undead with DR 20/magic, do I inflict also the 1d8+STR of the sword, or only the 10 damages (2 x 5th level) of the smite evil power?
Whew, finally an easy one. All damage bypasses DR.
3. AURA OF JUSTICE
"[...] grant the ability of smite evil to all allies within 10 feet"
Do they need to remain within 10 feet for the whole duration of the effect (1 minute), or after they are affected from the 10 feet burst they can also move around?
No they dont need to remain within 10 feet. If it was an emanation that may be the case. One you use a burst its gone. The players are free to move as they wish.
4. AURA OF JUSTICE
"to all allies within 10 feet"
Does the ability affect also the paladin himself or only the allies?
Somebody has observed that the paladin should most likely be considered an ally of himself, but I am not sure I am going to buy that...
No you are not your own ally. Only when an ability says you may include yourself in the affect should it be assumed that you can do so.
5. AURA OF JUSTICE
"Allies must use this smite evil ability by the start of the paladin's next turn and the bonuses last for 1 minute".Ok, this sounds confusing: allies *MUST* use the ability? Is that really compulsory or they can still change their mind and choose not to use it by suffering some negative consequence (such as "no bonuses", I suppose)?
It does mean you have to use it. If that was the case there would a consequence for not doing so. It means that if you dont use it within that time period specified the ability is wasted. This is also hinted at by saying activating it is a free action. If you had no choice in the matter the option to activate would not be given.
5b.
Can each ally affected by the "Aura of Justice" target a different enemy? (I think it would be more appropriate if the paladin were in charge of choosing the common target, but anyway...)
The way it reads it just gives the players the ability so they can smite whoever they want to smite.
Now if I saw my players huddling up I would rain AoE's upon them.
Dear all,
my group and I are a bit confused by the paladin's powers mentioned in the subject, and my players insisted that I ask for clarification on the boards regarding all the hazy points, so that we understand both the rules and - hopefully - the rationale behind them.
1. SMITE EVIL
About "Smite Evil" (pag. 60). The description says that the damage is added to "all damage rolls". Is that really so, or does it only apply to weapon damage?
If a paladin/sorceress uses a ray of frost, will the smite evil bonus add to that as well? Will it add as frost damage, or as "generic" damage?
Smite evil gives a bonus to ALL damage rolls. I think it is best to treat the extra damage as sacred damage.
1b.
Can the paladin add the Smite Evil damage to the damage inflicted to an undead by means of his/her Lay on Hands power?
Rays are considered weapon-like spells and are therefore enhanced by smite evil either way.
2. SMITE EVIL
"Regardless of the target, smite evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess"
Do the "smite evil attacks" include only the smite evil damage proper (i.e. 1 or 2 damage per paladin's level) or the whole damage of the attack?
Example: if my 5th level paladin smites evil *with a normal sword* on an undead with DR 20/magic, do I inflict also the 1d8+STR of the sword, or only the 10 damages (2 x 5th level) of the smite evil power?
The whole damage bypasses DR. That is the way DR works. Also the "regardless of creature" would not have any meaning if this were not the case. Regardless of creature means that the paladin can use his smite against even constructs to bypass their DR, even though he will not deal extra damage unless it is an evil construct.
3. AURA OF JUSTICE
"[...] grant the ability of smite evil to all allies within 10 feet"
Do they need to remain within 10 feet for the whole duration of the effect (1 minute), or after they are affected from the 10 feet burst they can also move around?
After being affected they should be able to move away from the paladin. Otherwise it can easily become a useless ability, which it shouldn't being 11th level and all.
4. AURA OF JUSTICE
"to all allies within 10 feet"
Does the ability affect also the paladin himself or only the allies?
Somebody has observed that the paladin should most likely be considered an ally of himself, but I am not sure I am going to buy that...
No. It only affects the paladins allies. Similar effects affecting the caster as well state so.
5. AURA OF JUSTICE
"Allies must use this smite evil ability by the start of the paladin's next turn and the bonuses last for 1 minute".Ok, this sounds confusing: allies *MUST* use the ability? Is that really compulsory or they can still change their mind and choose not to use it by suffering some negative consequence...
They can chose not to use the smite, without any consequence. If they want to use the smite they MUST use it before the paladins next round.
5b.
Can each ally affected by the "Aura of Justice" target a different enemy? (I think it would be more appropriate if the paladin were in charge of choosing the common target, but anyway...)
Targets are selected individually by each affected character.
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Damn it!
:)
Damn it!
:)
Well you may have explained some things better than I did, if that makes you feel any better. :)
Thanks a lot to both of you for the replies!
I think that it is very interesting what wraithstrike said, i.e.
Raw it applies to any spell that has an attack roll, but I don't know if that was the intent. As to the damage type I would saying using sneak attack as precedence the damage will be the same as the spell, but I am not sure for that that answer.
This is quite important, because it could make the very useful smite evil power into a potentially unbalanced one.
I am thinking mostly of it in combination with the "Aura of Justice": imagine in this scenario an arcane trickster doing a sneak attack with a ray of frost, or a sorcerer using another spell requiring an attack roll (there are many, acid arrow, scorching ray and disintegration are just the ones that most easily come to my mind).Well, we then have (a lot of) additional damage applied to a spell (which requires a "simple" range touch attack, so it's quite likely to be successful), and we have - according to the interpretation you gave above - the *whole* spell damage to bypass the DR. So you can effectively use scorching ray on, e.g., an evil creature normally immune to fire.
Honestly, this looks quite excessive to me. The Aura of Justice in itself is already astonishingly powerful, even when applied simply to weapon attacks (it's really a lot of extra damage, plus the bonus to the hit rolls *for the entire party* - minus the paladin - for several rounds; it adds up to a lot of damage, and is not affected by DR or anything. Not to mention the deflection bonus to AC, which would be a juicy advantage in itself! In the long run it is essentially more powerful than any spell effect out there)
I will of course consult with my players in order to decide what to do with this, but - home rules aside - I'd be really glad to hear some official ruling from the game designers.
Do you know maybe if there is any way to contact the game designers directy, e.g. something like the old "write to the Sage" thing for D&D 3.x or shall we just hope they happen to notice this thread in the boards? Just asking! :)
Thanks a lot to both of you for the replies!
I think that it is very interesting what wraithstrike said, i.e.
Raw it applies to any spell that has an attack roll, but I don't know if that was the intent. As to the damage type I would saying using sneak attack as precedence the damage will be the same as the spell, but I am not sure for that that answer.
This is quite important, because it could make the very useful smite evil power into a potentially unbalanced one.
I am thinking mostly of it in combination with the "Aura of Justice": imagine in this scenario an arcane trickster doing a sneak attack with a ray of frost, or a sorcerer using another spell requiring an attack roll (there are many, acid arrow, scorching ray and disintegration are just the ones that most easily come to my mind).
Well, we then have (a lot of) additional damage applied to a spell (which requires a "simple" range touch attack, so it's quite likely to be successful), and we have - according to the interpretation you gave above - the *whole* spell damage to bypass the DR. So you can effectively use scorching ray on, e.g., an evil creature normally immune to fire.Edit: My real life english is a lot better than my internet english for some reason.
Honestly, this looks quite excessive to me. The Aura of Justice in itself is already astonishingly powerful, even when applied simply to weapon attacks (it's really a lot of extra damage, plus the bonus to the hit rolls *for the entire party* - minus the paladin - for several rounds; it adds up to a lot of damage, and is not affected by DR or anything. Not to mention the deflection bonus to AC, which would be a juicy advantage in itself! In the long run it is essentially more powerful than any spell effect out there)
I will of course consult with my players in order to decide what to do with this, but - home rules aside - I'd be really glad to hear some official ruling from the game designers.
Do you know maybe if there is any way to contact the game designers directy, e.g. something like the old "write to the Sage" thing for D&D 3.x or...
No, there is no direct contact, but when they get time they normally drop in a thread and answer a question or two. I would suggest keeping the question near on the front page so they can see it. Bumping it should eventually get an answer, but they probably won't answer as quickly as they normally do because of the ongoing playtest. They are not ignoring us however. They are just busy.
This is quite important, because it could make the very useful smite evil power into a potentially unbalanced one.
I am thinking mostly of it in combination with the "Aura of Justice": imagine in this scenario an arcane trickster doing a sneak attack with a ray of frost, or a sorcerer using another spell requiring an attack roll (there are many, acid arrow, scorching ray and disintegration are just the ones that most easily come to my mind).
Well, we then have (a lot of) additional damage applied to a spell (which requires a "simple" range touch attack, so it's quite likely to be successful), and we have - according to the interpretation you gave above - the *whole* spell damage to bypass the DR. So you can effectively use scorching ray on, e.g., an evil creature normally immune to fire.
No. DR is not energy resistance or energy immunity. Smite does not bypass those. It only bypasses DR.
And now I know why you go by the Grandfather, I ninja'd you... by almost 5 hours lol.That said though, it is something important to distinguish.
It was more an attempt to support your stance.
I could have put it differently, though. I will excuse myself (lamely) with being home sick.
Bumping it should eventually get an answer, but they probably won't answer as quickly as they normally do because of the ongoing playtest
They are playtesting the smite evil rules just for us?
Now, that's what I call service! :PThank you for pointing out that energy resistance/immunity is not the same as DR.
This of course makes the question "which kind of damage is delivered by the smite evil" even more important. Because if it is indeed sacred damage, then I can still use my scorching ray against the red dragon to some avail (actually, it would be even better to simply shoot a 0-level frost ray, the damage proper is delivered thanks to the smite aura anyway).
A.
PS: what are they busy playtesting right now?
Bumping it should eventually get an answer, but they probably won't answer as quickly as they normally do because of the ongoing playtestThey are playtesting the smite evil rules just for us?
Now, that's what I call service! :PThank you for pointing out that energy resistance/immunity is not the same as DR.
This of course makes the question "which kind of damage is delivered by the smite evil" even more important. Because if it is indeed sacred damage, then I can still use my scorching ray against the red dragon to some avail (actually, it would be even better to simply shoot a 0-level frost ray, the damage proper is delivered thanks to the smite aura anyway).
A.
PS: what are they busy playtesting right now?
The summoner, witch, oracle, and cavalier. Mostly the summoner and witch I am assuming, since they are the newer classes. Two more new classes should be released soon for playtesting.
Bumping it should eventually get an answer, but they probably won't answer as quickly as they normally do because of the ongoing playtestThey are playtesting the smite evil rules just for us?
Now, that's what I call service! :PThank you for pointing out that energy resistance/immunity is not the same as DR.
This of course makes the question "which kind of damage is delivered by the smite evil" even more important. Because if it is indeed sacred damage, then I can still use my scorching ray against the red dragon to some avail (actually, it would be even better to simply shoot a 0-level frost ray, the damage proper is delivered thanks to the smite aura anyway).
A.
PS: what are they busy playtesting right now?
The Advanced Players Guide is being tested (or at least classes appearing in that book. You can find them as downloads).
The damage of smite is untyped but should be either the same as the attack being used or should be sacred.
Personaly I favor sacred damage for smite evil.
I'm popping this up, since I'd really like to get some kind of official ruling sooner or later on the previous questions.
By the way, something related: do I understand correctly that the extra damage granted by the "smite evil" applies to all the attacks for the whole duration of the effect (i.e. basically until the evil creature dies or the paladin sleeps), and not only during the first round?
(A friend of mine is suggesting that the listed duration applies only for the AC deflection bonus, not for the extra damage, but I see no mention of this restriction in the RAW).
Thanks
A.
I'm popping this up, since I'd really like to get some kind of official ruling sooner or later on the previous questions.
By the way, something related: do I understand correctly that the extra damage granted by the "smite evil" applies to all the attacks for the whole duration of the effect (i.e. basically until the evil creature dies or the paladin sleeps), and not only during the first round?
(A friend of mine is suggesting that the listed duration applies only for the AC deflection bonus, not for the extra damage, but I see no mention of this restriction in the RAW).
Thanks
A.
It applies until the enemy is dead, or the pally changes smite targets.
2. SMITE EVIL
"Regardless of the target, smite evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess"
Do the "smite evil attacks" include only the smite evil damage proper (i.e. 1 or 2 damage per paladin's level) or the whole damage of the attack?
Example: if my 5th level paladin smites evil *with a normal sword* on an undead with DR 20/magic, do I inflict also the 1d8+STR of the sword, or only the 10 damages (2 x 5th level) of the smite evil power?The whole damage bypasses DR. That is the way DR works. Also the "regardless of creature" would not have any meaning if this were not the case. Regardless of creature means that the paladin can use his smite against even constructs to bypass their DR, even though he will not deal extra damage unless it is an evil construct.
Actually, I think this is slightly off - namely, the bolded part. There's a line further down the Smite Evil description -
If the paladin targets a creature that is not evil, the smite is wasted with no effect.
- that negates that part. I think what the 'regardless of the target' phrase in question is trying to avoid any confusion over whether 'vanilla' baddies and the 2x undead, demons, and dragons both have their DR ignored or not.
I could be wrong, but my DM was most upset when I tore up his constructs to the point where I went lookin' to see if this was really the case or not. If memory serves this consensus was reached elsewhere.
Actually, I think this is slightly off - namely, the bolded part. There's a line further down the Smite Evil description -If the paladin targets a creature that is not evil, the smite is wasted with no effect.- that negates that part. I think what the 'regardless of the target' phrase in question is trying to avoid any confusion over whether 'vanilla' baddies and the 2x undead, demons, and dragons both have their DR ignored or not.
I could be wrong, but my DM was most upset when I tore up his constructs to the point where I went lookin' to see if this was really the case or not. If memory serves this consensus was reached elsewhere.
Yes, I agree with you. This was the subject of a brief but heated discussion in my group as well and we also reached the conclusion that smite evil has no effect whatsoever (except wasting a daily use) if activated against a non-evil creature.
However, it looks like there are also other open issues regarding this power (which is used really often... it is a obtained as a 1st level paladin character after all), and in my experience this kind of informal consensus is not copacetic for everyone.
Since I started following the board, I've also seen several other ambiguities regarding a variety of rules (although I don't think there is a collection of major open problems, isn't there?)
Therefore, I think that an official FAQ with clarifications and examples would be much needed.
(An erratum might also be due, in case there are inconsistencies in the RAW).
IMO the only thing PFRPG is lacking is a (slightly) more direct way to make contact with the powers that be. Or - in other words - the only aspect I miss of D&D 3.x is the Sage's Advice/Customer Service. :)
A.
Therefore, I think that an official FAQ with clarifications and examples would be much needed.
(An erratum might also be due, in case there are inconsistencies in the RAW).IMO the only thing PFRPG is lacking is a (slightly) more direct way to make contact with the powers that be. Or - in other words - the only aspect I miss of D&D 3.x is the Sage's Advice/Customer Service. :)
A.
Actually being that you posted on the forum it's highly likely that one of the powers that be have read this, they simply don't see a need to post.
One of the things that JB and the like have specifically stated is they do not intend to clarify every point in the rules. They don't want to tell people they are "playing it wrong" instead they want you to use what interpretation works for your table, and have said as much a couple of times in various threads already.
SO, while an erratum might be useful it's not highly likely.
Actually being that you posted on the forum it's highly likely that one of the powers that be have read this, they simply don't see a need to post.
Then maybe I should start writing something more provocative to have them intervene? :P
(No worries, just kidding!)
One of the things that JB and the like have specifically stated is they do not intend to clarify every point in the rules. They don't want to tell people they are "playing it wrong" instead they want you to use what interpretation works for your table, and have said as much a couple of times in various threads already.
I can understand and maybe even agree with this philosophy, to some extent.
However, publishing a FAQ and/or an erratum on the website does not mean that Mr. Bulmahn is going to break into your house during a PFRPG session and start enforcing the "correct" rules. People who are interested in the clarifications would download the pdf from the website of their own free will, I suppose.To put it a bit into the terms you used, it's like they're interested in what interpretation of the rules works best at the designers' game table.
A.
Still waiting...
A.
Still waiting...
A.
You may want to open a new thread with your specific question as the focus.