Sorry if this double posts, but I'm pretty sure the forums ate my first attempt...
My online group and I were attempting to get in a last-minute APG playtest for the Cavalier (in particular), and came up on a question we couldn't hash out after the session collapsed due to technical difficulties. Namely, exactly how a lance works with a charge.
The rules seem to say that the mount itself is the one doing the charging, which would mean it would wind up adjacent to the target and the rider would be unable to attack it. My thought is that you treat the two as a single entity, where the rider's attack is the pertinent one and thus the mount stops when the lance gets into attacking position. This obviously only allows the rider to attack (unless the mount has reach somehow, too), which seems fair to me.
I'm mainly asking if there's an 'official' stance (be that word-of-god from the designers or just a widely accepted way to do things), since this seems to be one of those times I can't get everybody to agree.
Sorry if this double posts, but I'm pretty sure the forums ate my first attempt...
My online group and I were attempting to get in a last-minute APG playtest for the Cavalier (in particular), and came up on a question we couldn't hash out after the session collapsed due to technical difficulties. Namely, exactly how a lance works with a charge.
The rules seem to say that the mount itself is the one doing the charging, which would mean it would wind up adjacent to the target and the rider would be unable to attack it. My thought is that you treat the two as a single entity, where the rider's attack is the pertinent one and thus the mount stops when the lance gets into attacking position. This obviously only allows the rider to attack (unless the mount has reach somehow, too), which seems fair to me.
I'm mainly asking if there's an 'official' stance (be that word-of-god from the designers or just a widely accepted way to do things), since this seems to be one of those times I can't get everybody to agree.
For simplicity's sake, the rider occupies the same space as the mount, as per mounted combat rules. That means the 4x4 ring of squares surrounding the 2x2 horse cannot be attacked by the lance, since it's a reach weapon and can't threaten adjacent squares. Thus the big ring of 6x6 squares is what the lance threatens, and you'd stop the charge once you attack them.
This isn't a situation unique to mounted combat, you'd have the same issue with a charge with a reach weapon on foot. The only weirdness comes from the fact that because you occupy the same space as your mount, you effectively go up a size category as far as reach is concerned.
Edited: to correct and clarify the dimensions provided above.
For simplicity's sake, the rider occupies the same space as the mount, as per mounted combat rules. That means the 3x3 ring of squares surrounding the 10x10 horse cannot be attacked by the lance, since it's a reach weapon and can't threaten adjacent squares. Thus the big ring of 4x4 squares is what the lance threatens, and you'd stop the charge once you attack them.This isn't a situation unique to mounted combat, you'd have the same issue with a charge with a reach weapon on foot. The only weirdness comes from the fact that because you occupy the same space as your mount, you effectively go up a size category as far as reach is concerned.
+1
BTW the adjacent ring to a horse(2x2) is 4x4 squares and the threatened range ring with the lance is 6x6. :-P
For simplicity's sake, the rider occupies the same space as the mount, as per mounted combat rules. That means the 3x3 ring of squares surrounding the 10x10 horse cannot be attacked by the lance, since it's a reach weapon and can't threaten adjacent squares. Thus the big ring of 4x4 squares is what the lance threatens, and you'd stop the charge once you attack them.This isn't a situation unique to mounted combat, you'd have the same issue with a charge with a reach weapon on foot. The only weirdness comes from the fact that because you occupy the same space as your mount, you effectively go up a size category as far as reach is concerned.
+1
BTW the adjacent ring to a horse(2x2) is 4x4 squares and the threatened range ring with the lance is 6x6. :-P
Whoops. Silly me. :) Fixed it now, thank you.
This isn't a situation unique to mounted combat, you'd have the same issue with a charge with a reach weapon on foot. The only weirdness comes from the fact that because you occupy the same space as your mount, you effectively go up a size category as far as reach is concerned.
Not that weird actually. Even if you effectively occupy your mounts area you are not in fact large. Even if you are considered large for some situations all large creature do not automatically a natural 10' reach either (eg. horses and most large animals).
Thanks for the quick answers, guys (though I was slow to reply). This was the way I generally saw it but I think my player thought he was entitled to the lance's x2 damage and his mount's attack somehow. (That's how I temporarily ruled it, too, for sake of time).
This isn't a situation unique to mounted combat, you'd have the same issue with a charge with a reach weapon on foot. The only weirdness comes from the fact that because you occupy the same space as your mount, you effectively go up a size category as far as reach is concerned.
Actually, the weirdness I was worried about is it's the mount, which targets the 4x4 square with its (presumably inferior) reach, is the one doing the charging according to this tidbit under mounted combat:
If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge).
That third sentence pretty well indicates it's intended to be able to charge with a reach weapon while mounted, so it seems easiest to consider the rider/mount combo to be a single entity that happens to have a reach attack and whatever natural attacks the critter has (meaning one could charge with the mount's attacks or the rider's lance attack, but not both).
Thanks again for the answers, folks - hopefully I can get my Cav player to see my point now.