in Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 Monster Manual, they do by the 10/11 Rule for Dice, so to find out the ability score adjustment I would just subtract 10 from even scores and 11 from odd scores. So, take Nymph for example:
Str 10 - 10 = 0
Dex 17 - 11 = +6
Con 12 - 10 = +2
Int 16 - 10 = +6
Wis 17 - 11 = +6
Cha 19 - 11 = +8
D&D Nymph Ability Adjustments: +6 Dex,
+2 Con, +6 Int, +6 Wis, +8 Cha
But looking in the Pathfinder Bestiary has me a bit confused.
Str 10 - 10 = 0
Dex 21 - 11 = +10
Con 18 - 10 = +8
Int 16 - 10 = +6
Wis 17 - 11 = +6
Cha 25 - 11 = +14
Apparent Pathfinder Nymph Ability Adjustments:
+10 Dex, +8 Con, +6 Int, +6 Wis, +14 Cha
Does Pathfinder use the same 10/11 rule, and if so, does that mean Nymph as a character got that much stronger without a challenge rating increase? Or is there some new system for figuring out an Ability Score adjustment of a monster?
And on a side note, how would you adjust the challenge rating of a monster that has as many levels of spells as it's challenge rating if you removed all those spells and gave it a different class in a story? For example, what would a Nymph's Challenge rating be with no spells but everything else?
Thanks.
Does Pathfinder use the same 10/11 rule, and if so, does that mean Nymph as a character got that much stronger without a challenge rating increase? Or is there some new system for figuring out an Ability Score adjustment of a monster?
Yes PRPG uses the 10/11 rule. See the Introduction section under Ability Scores.
Ability Scores: The creature's ability scores are listed here. Unless otherwise indicated, a creature's ability scores represent the baseline of its racial modifiers applied to scores of 10 or 11. Creatures with NPC class levels have stats in the standard array (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8), while creatures with character class levels have the elite array (15, 14, 12, 11, 10, 8); in both cases, the creature's ability score modifiers are listed at the end of its description.
PRPG assumed some 3.5 monsters were weaker than necessary for their CR, so the nymph got a boost.
And on a side note, how would you adjust the challenge rating of a monster that has as many levels of spells as it's challenge rating if you removed all those spells and gave it a different class in a story? For example, what would a Nymph's Challenge rating be with no spells but everything else?
Thanks.
I'd use the information in the Monster Creation and Monster Advancement rules as a guideline. It will depend on what class you swap out--i.e. going Druid to Barbarian is different than Druid to Sorcerer. Losing 7 levels of Druid spells but keeping the ability to stun and blind foes would only reduce the CR for a nymph by probably 2 or so.
Thanks. Actually, for a story, I was working on a Nymph with a Shadow template, a twisted anti version of a Nymph from a Grove that was pulled into the plane of shadow and twisted. So she doesn't have any druid knowledge, and anything nature related is replace by something relating to shadow. (for example, instead of Knowledge nature she would have the same bonus in Knowledge Planar Shadow) and generally regards things of shadow with the same conviction a normal Nymph would for nature. For class, I was going to make her Rogue. But many of her abilities are sight related, which goes against the shadow nature of keeping hidden. So it seems she won't be able to use all her Nymph abilities at the same time as Shadow abilities. And since other abilities are based on beauty, I am not sure how to tie that in. But when you add the ability score adjustments for both Nymph and Shadow it ends up looking like this:
+14 Dex, +8 Con, +8 Int, +6 Wis, +16 Cha
I am using this template:
http://www.community3e.com/dn/monster/ShadowTemplate.pdf
The CR for the Shadow Template I am using is 2. In a situation like this, how would you adjust the Nymph , or combined, in making a Shadow Nymph?
I was also thinking of tweaking the shadow template above with this one:
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Shadowmorph_%283.5e_Template%29
adding to the CR, but ignoring anything from the second Shadow template that would stack. For example, the first Shadow Template get's +10 to hide when in Shadow Form, but the second template get's "Morphic Skin" which pretty much does the same in all situations, so I would go with the first template and not go with Morphic Skin at all. And since both get Darkvision that's unchanged. So it's really just the first shadow template, adding 3 abilities to it for an increase CR.
I am not really sure how playable a Shadow Nymph would be, but I want to give it a try.
.......
Onto another Nymph related question:
In the Pathfinder bestiary there is "Young Creature (CR –1)" which would
be of reduced size, so higher DEX but much lower strength and constitution, and a penalty to all rolls and HD, so might make for an interesting way to weaken a Nymph overall. But this raises specific questions in regards to a Nymph who relies on her Beauty. How would such a thing affect her?
What the...
Shadowmorph? No...
WTF sm**f'd you? :P
Creative Director
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Nymphs aren't the only monsters in the book whose stat mods changed from the 3.5 version. Pretty much EVERY MONSTER in the Bestiary had some level of stat adjustment going on, since adjusting stats is a GREAT way to adjust a monster's power.
When 3rd edition came around, CR was brand new. They didn't have much experience with it.
With Pathifnder, we've had a decade or so of experience with the system, and thus we're able to rebuild all of the monsters to be MUCH more close to what a typical monster of a specific CR should have. In some cases, like the nymph, that resulted in a pretty extensive revision.
and although Cha isn't a true picture of beauty, I still find it a bit strange that nymphs have a lower Cha score then a Succubus, mm? The Succubus merely seduces...the nymph is so gorgeous, she KILLS.
==Aelryinth
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Creative Director
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and although Cha isn't a true picture of beauty, I still find it a bit strange that nymphs have a lower Cha score then a Succubus, mm? The Succubus merely seduces...the nymph is so gorgeous, she KILLS.
==Aelryinth
Actually, nymphs no longer kill with their beauty.
And the bad girls are ALWAYS hotter.
What the...
Shadowmorph? No...
Well, the shadow in the Monster Manual and in the Pathfinder Bestiary seem very limited. Only two abilities, and one of them - create spawn - isn't really something I would put into a player character. It also seems to consider Shadow as undead without actually saying it, which doesn't help when wanting to create a living create that is part shadow.
So I went looking and found some Shadows that I consider much more useful. But ya, Shadow Morph is a bit too much. Not nearly as good as the Shadow Template, and the whole ability to change the element of spells seems broken. "Morphic Aura" seems very useful when you want to create an evil character to play with good characters, since you can bluff alignment, but not so sure about a chance of weilding a weapon of a different alignment. If nothing else, I'd probably go with the Shadow Template, and just add "Shadow Familiar" (as an unseen servant) and just the aspect of "Morphic Aura" to give a chance of bluffing alignment to characters.
I played the shadow template in a previous campaign, and since the shadow form turns equipment into shadow as well, the DM ruled that when I assumed shadow form while in contact with a Construct it would assume shadow form as well. And even when leaving shadow form, it retained it for the full hour. So then we had a shadow construct which made for a very interesting battle.
Being made of negative energy also has some interested uses in play. In the Plane of Positive energy, you might have the same reaction as a normal character in the plane of positive energy. And in the Plane of Negative energy you might have the same reaction as a normal character in the plane of positive energy.
I would actually like to see a Shadow Template similar to what I have been working with appear in some form in a Bestiary. I figure if a living create pulled into the Plane of Shadow stays there too long, characters can begin to assume shadow characteristics, and a twisted character could in theory breed with an incorporeal to produce half shadow offspring.
WTF sm**f'd you? :P
Honestly, I really don't know. After I made a post, that picture just appeared. I don't see any way to set or change Avatars. I guess I'm just smurfed.
...When you add the ability score adjustments for both Nymph and Shadow it ends up looking like this:
+14 Dex, +8 Con, +8 Int, +6 Wis, +16 Cha
I am using this template:
http://www.community3e.com/dn/monster/ShadowTemplate.pdf
The CR for the Shadow Template I am using is 2. In a situation like this, how would you adjust the Nymph , or combined, in making a Shadow Nymph?
I was also thinking of tweaking the shadow template above with this one:
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Shadowmorph_%283.5e_Template%29...
If you're taking a Nymph, subtracting her nature powers, and adding shadow powers, I really don't think you need to apply any Shadow template at all. You're creating your own "Shadow Nymph" creature/template. Run with it - don't rely on a template.
Also, Rogue is an awesome idea - though remember Nymph's only get Druid spells, so should only get some Rogue powers - Sneak attack probably? And Uncanny Dodge perhaps.
Also the Beauty effects still work great - just imagine: A shadowy form is tracking them, sniping them, eluding the party endlessly. They finally corner and catch sight of it when... WHAM, blinded by the terrible beauty before their eyes.
Welcome to the Paizo boards, Elliander. Usually any use of the word 'smurf' in a post, or certain variants thereof, award you a random smurf avatar to accompany that post, irrespective of whether or not you usually have an avatar. The change is usually (unless the PostMonster General has decided to have some fun at your expense) only temporary and for such posts.
I just carried out a quick test in a suitable thread down in the Off Topic Discussion forum, and it seems that '' in your second post on this thread earned that post a smurf avatar, and then you used the word 'smurfed' in your third post on this thread, so that got one too...
It used to be just the plain word 'smurf', but the PMG likes to keep everyone on their toes...
Edit:
If, whilst you are signed in, you click on the 'My Account' option at the very top of the screen, you should (though you may be asked for your password again if it is some time since you signed in) get a page where one of the boxes regards 'Messageboard Settings'. At least one of the options here ('click here to change your messageboard settings') will allow you to pick from the modest selection of avatars available for use.
Well smurf me... That's pretty cool.
...When you add the ability score adjustments for both Nymph and Shadow it ends up looking like this:
+14 Dex, +8 Con, +8 Int, +6 Wis, +16 Cha
I am using this template:
http://www.community3e.com/dn/monster/ShadowTemplate.pdf
The CR for the Shadow Template I am using is 2. In a situation like this, how would you adjust the Nymph , or combined, in making a Shadow Nymph?
I was also thinking of tweaking the shadow template above with this one:
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Shadowmorph_%283.5e_Template%29...
If you're taking a Nymph, subtracting her nature powers, and adding shadow powers, I really don't think you need to apply any Shadow template at all. You're creating your own "Shadow Nymph" creature/template. Run with it - don't rely on a template.
Also, Rogue is an awesome idea - though remember Nymph's only get Druid spells, so should only get some Rogue powers - Sneak attack probably? And Uncanny Dodge perhaps.
Also the Beauty effects still work great - just imagine: A shadowy form is tracking them, sniping them, eluding the party endlessly. They finally corner and catch sight of it when... WHAM, blinded by the terrible beauty before their eyes.
Ok, I decided to take you advice on this one. I created a new Creature, "Shadow Nymph" - I tweaked a few of the Nymph abilities to take Shadow Form into account, and tried a few ideas. I also brought swim back in since it looks like it was taken out on the pathfinder bestiary. I wasn't sure if there was a language for shadows, or what to use for a few places, so consider it a rough draft:
www.etherealspheres.com/ShadowNymph.doc
(I'd appreciate thoughts on it, and ideas for Level Adjustments)
Interestingly, if you take the picture for a Nymph from the monster manual and invert it, it looks exactly how I would imagine a Shadow Nymph to look.
http://www.etherealspheres.com/ShadowNymph.JPG
Welcome to the Paizo boards, Elliander. Usually any use of the word 'smurf' in a post, or certain variants thereof, award you a random smurf avatar to accompany that post, irrespective of whether or not you usually have an avatar. The change is usually (unless the PostMonster General has decided to have some fun at your expense) only temporary and for such posts.
I just carried out a quick test in a suitable thread down in the Off Topic Discussion forum, and it seems that '' in your second post on this thread earned that post a smurf avatar, and then you used the word 'smurfed' in your third post on this thread, so that got one too...
It used to be just the plain word 'smurf', but the PMG likes to keep everyone on their toes...Edit:
If, whilst you are signed in, you click on the 'My Account' option at the very top of the screen, you should (though you may be asked for your password again if it is some time since you signed in) get a page where one of the boxes regards 'Messageboard Settings'. At least one of the options here ('click here to change your messageboard settings') will allow you to pick from the modest selection of avatars available for use.
Smurftacular :P
I just made a few tweaks to it. On close examination, the section on Swim from the Monster Manual wasn't really needed because in the Pathfinder Bestiary the Swim bonus is so high. I also figured the touch attack could improve with HD, and added two abilities.
I also created some abilities of my own I had in mind. I figured that, being from the Plane of Shadow, she has to have a chance of precision when moving through the Plane of Shadow, and also came up with an ability "Shadow Gate" which is similar to Dimension Door.
Anyway, if anyone wouldn't mind taking a look, I could use an objective view on what the Challenge Rating should be, and what should be changed if anything, or any opinions about it:
www.etherealspheres.com/ShadowNymph.doc
I made a few tweaks. Here is a form that can be viewed in a browser.
http://www.etherealspheres.com/ShadowNymph.pdf
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Does Pathfinder use the same 10/11 rule
For example, what would a Nymph's Challenge rating be with no spells but everything else?
Yes on 10/11.
By spells do you mean SLA? This is an ask your DM question, but I (as a DM) wouldn't allow removing SLA.
I use a modified bestiary 313 rule for Monsters as PC, and it is complicated. The Nymph is one of the strongest races (top 10) only beat by things like Planetar, some Archons, and some other classes.
Does Pathfinder use the same 10/11 rule
For example, what would a Nymph's Challenge rating be with no spells but everything else?
Yes on 10/11.
By spells do you mean SLA? This is an ask your DM question, but I (as a DM) wouldn't allow removing SLA.
I use a modified bestiary 313 rule for Monsters as PC, and it is complicated. The Nymph is one of the strongest races (top 10) only beat by things like Planetar, some Archons, and some other classes.
By Spells, I mean the spells that the standard monster character comes with. She has as many levels of druid spells as she has in CR. It is as if, when you erase all her spells, she has a CR of just 1.
In a previous group where I played a Nymph, the DM didn't let me remove spells and instead went with negative levels in my chosen class, and only gave me access to the Druid spells when my main class was that level. Mostly because how powerful she is. However, she ended up dying pretty quickly because those negative levels hurt. Still was fun though playing a Nymph Bard.
In working on a Shadow Nymph though, even without any of her spells, she is much more powerful I think. As a DM, what Challenge rating would you give her, as either a character or a monster, as is?
http://www.etherealspheres.com/ShadowNymph.pdf
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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By Spells, I mean the spells that the standard monster character comes with. She has as many levels of druid spells as she has in CR. It is as if, when you erase all her spells, she has a CR of just 1.
If she has Druid spell casting of Xth level, that doesn't grant her all the other class abilities of the Druid. So you can't remove X levels of Druid spell casting thinking you are reducing her CR by X.
It will be far less than X.
By Spells, I mean the spells that the standard monster character comes with. She has as many levels of druid spells as she has in CR. It is as if, when you erase all her spells, she has a CR of just 1.If she has Druid spell casting of Xth level, that doesn't grant her all the other class abilities of the Druid. So you can't remove X levels of Druid spell casting thinking you are reducing her CR by X.
It will be far less than X.
I see what you mean.