When a character with touch attacks (such as a lamia) becomes entitled to multiple attacks on a full attack action, can he or she make multiple touch attacks just as he or she could make multiple weapon attacks?
Also, the lamia entry (for example) has the lamia making two dagger attacks, two secondary claw attacks, and one touch attack as a secondary attack. If the lamia dropped the dagger, could she make touch attacks as primary attacks?
When a character with touch attacks (such as a lamia) becomes entitled to multiple attacks on a full attack action, can he or she make multiple touch attacks just as he or she could make multiple weapon attacks?
That depends upon the nature of the touch attack. If it is a natural weapon attack like a vapires energydrain, the answer is no - since the number of natural weapons do not increase with higher BAB.
Also, the lamia entry (for example) has the lamia making two dagger attacks, two secondary claw attacks, and one touch attack as a secondary attack. If the lamia dropped the dagger, could she make touch attacks as primary attacks?
Yes, She would then attack with to bare hands at +12/+12.
Also, the lamia entry (for example) has the lamia making two dagger attacks, two secondary claw attacks, and one touch attack as a secondary attack. If the lamia dropped the dagger, could she make touch attacks as primary attacks?Yes, She would then attack with to bare hands at +12/+12.
But that runs counter to what James Jacobs said about weapons versus non-weapons. A melee touch attack isn't a weapon in the sense it isn't like a sword, axe, etc. It delivers the supernatural wisdom drain ability. Only weapons can get iterative attacks.
Iterative attacks are SOLELY the province of weapons (and of spells that specifically work like weapons)—touch attacks and natural weapons do not work this way. Therefore, one touch per round with a produce flame, or one hurled flame per round.
Also, the lamia entry (for example) has the lamia making two dagger attacks, two secondary claw attacks, and one touch attack as a secondary attack. If the lamia dropped the dagger, could she make touch attacks as primary attacks?Yes, She would then attack with to bare hands at +12/+12.But that runs counter to what James Jacobs said about weapons versus non-weapons. A melee touch attack isn't a weapon in the sense it isn't like a sword, axe, etc. It delivers the supernatural wisdom drain ability. Only weapons can get iterative attacks.
Iterative attacks are SOLELY the province of weapons (and of spells that specifically work like weapons)—touch attacks and natural weapons do not work this way. Therefore, one touch per round with a produce flame, or one hurled flame per round.
That is what I started by pointing out. I am 100% within what James said.
since the number of natural weapons do not increase with higher BAB
However, if you examine the lamia's stats and compare that to the Bestiary p. 302 it is evident that the dagger is actually replacing a natural touch attack. A lamia without a dagger can still defend herself with two claws and two touch attacks.
Okay, so according to Mr. Jacobs, it looks like she could punch a guy twice, or touch him for Wisdom drain once.
However! Since a touch attack is not a 'natural weapon', perhaps it is not necessarily always 'secondary', (as her claws would be, if I understand secondary attacks correctly). Could a lamia use her touch attack as a primary attack, hitting with her highest BAB, then following up with the two secondary claw attacks?
Or maybe I don't understand secondary attacks. If a lamia dropped her weapons and attacked only with her claws, the claws would still take a -5 penalty for being secondary weapons, yes?
Okay, so according to Mr. Jacobs, it looks like she could punch a guy twice, or touch him for Wisdom drain once.
James Jacobs is talking about the produce flame spell in the citation above. The iterative attack bit also applies her, but not the rest, as it is specific to that thread.
A lamia can make two touch attacks (one with each hand) AND two claw attacks, when making a full-attack.
However! Since a touch attack is not a 'natural weapon', perhaps it is not necessarily always 'secondary', (as her claws would be, if I understand secondary attacks correctly). Could a lamia use her touch attack as a primary attack, hitting with her highest BAB, then following up with the two secondary claw attacks?
The touch is only secondary when she uses the dagger. Please read p. 302 of the Bestiary.
Or maybe I don't understand secondary attacks. If a lamia dropped her weapons and attacked only with her claws, the claws would still take a -5 penalty for being secondary weapons, yes?
You will understand secondary attacks better when you read page 302.
The claws are already secondary... it is factored in to the lamia stats.Natural Attacks Most creatures possess one or more
natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon). These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and
secondary attacks. Primary attacks are made using the
creature’s full base attack bonus and add the creature’s
full Strength bonus on damage rolls. Secondary attacks
are made using the creature’s base attack bonus –5 and
add only 1/2 the creature’s Strength bonus on damage
rolls. If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always
made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and adds
1-1/2 the creature’s Strength bonus on attack rolls. This
increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks
but only takes one. If a creature has only one type of attack,
but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated
as a primary attack, regardless of its type. Table 3–1 lists
some of the most common types of natural attacks and
their classifications.
Some creatures treat one or more of their attacks
differently, such as dragons, which always receive 1-1/2
times their Strength bonus on damage rolls with their
bite attack. These exceptions are noted in the creature’s
description.
Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with
weapons can use both as part of a full attack action
(although often a creature must forgo one natural
attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a
claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their
weapons normally but treat all of their natural attacks
as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the
attack’s original type.
The Damage Type column refers to the sort of damage
that the natural attack typically deals: bludgeoning (B),
slashing (S), or piercing (P). Some attacks deal damage of
more than one type, depending on the creature. In such
cases all the damage is considered to be of all listed types
for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Some fey, humanoids, monstrous humanoids, and
outsiders do not possess natural attacks. These creatures
can make unarmed strikes, but treat them as weapons
for the purpose of determining attack bonuses, and they
must use the two-weapon fighting rules when making
attacks with both hands. See Table 3–1 for typical damage
values for natural attacks by creature size.
Format: bite +5 (1d6+1), 2 claws +5 (1d4+2), 4 tentacles +0
(1d4+1); Location: Melee and Ranged.
However, if you examine the lamia's stats and compare that to the Bestiary p. 302 it is evident that the dagger is actually replacing a natural touch attack. A lamia without a dagger can still defend herself with two claws and two touch attacks.
How can a dagger replace a "natural" touch attack? In fact, what is a "natural" touch attack?
There's just the melee touch attack as part of the wisdom drain ability.
The dagger gets two attacks in a full attack action because of the lamia's +9 BAB.
What am I missing? (PS, I don't have the Bestiary available, only the PRD right now.)
Edit: The fact that produce flame was mentioned doesn't diminish the point that melee touch attacks aren't weapon-like.
After seeing your post, I'm still not sure where you're getting that the supernatural ability (*not* a natural attack) gets two attacks in a round.
How can a dagger replace a "natural" touch attack? In fact, what is a "natural" touch attack?
Natural as opposed to produced by a spell or other exogene means.
There's just the melee touch attack as part of the wisdom drain ability.
The dagger gets two attacks in a full attack action because of the lamia's +9 BAB.
What am I missing? (PS, I don't have the Bestiary available, only the PRD right now.)
Actually the wisdom drain is part of the touch attack, not the other way around.
I already posted the Bestiary rule above... do read it.Edit: The fact that produce flame was mentioned doesn't diminish the point that melee touch attacks aren't weapon-like.
After seeing your post, I'm still not sure where you're getting that the supernatural ability (*not* a natural attack) gets two attacks in a round.
Now I see the problem. Please consult the lamia entry in the Bestiary.
Well, the Wisdom-draining touch attack doesn't follow all the usual rules for (Su) attacks - it isn't a standard action, for example. The supernatural ability just deals wisdom drain on a hit. It doesn't specify (or change) how often the lamia can touch an enemy.
Mr. Jacob's statement about touch attacks not functioning like weapons seems clear enough to me, though. After all, he wasn't just talking about produce flame; hence "touch attacks and natural weapons do not work this way". I suppose the touch attack is a natural weapon then?
I guess it's kind of creature-specific. The ghost entry clearly lists the ghost's touch attack as a standard action, while the green hag's ability-damaging touch is is a carrier effect or at her option a seperate standard action, and lamia's apparently functions like a natural weapon.
Does that sound about right?
Now I see the problem. Please consult the lamia entry in the Bestiary.
So, you're saying that because the touch attack has a -5 penalty to attack rolls, it must be a natural attack (or, as listed, a secondary natural attack). So let's assume for a moment that this is a natural attack. It may indeed be an exception in that a melee touch attack is treated as a natural attack for the purposes of this monster. Can you find another example of this? Even dread wraiths no longer get multiple touches -- they get one hit in PF.
What makes you think that claws or hands are being used to deliver this melee touch attack. Why can't it be the creature's lips? Just because the creature has two hands doesn't mean it is granted two touches.
Does that sound about right?
Largely.
It is true at any rate that natural weapons do not get iterative attacks.
Looking through the PB I have not been able to find any creatures with more than one touch attack.
I must retract my previous statement about lamias being able to do two touch attacks. If the lamia drops the dagger she would only get a single touch attack (at +12 to hit) and her two secondary claw attacks
Even dread wraiths no longer get multiple touches -- they get one hit in PF.
What makes you think that claws or hands are being used to deliver this melee touch attack. Why can't it be the creature's lips? Just because the creature has two hands doesn't mean it is granted two touches.
True. I agree that a lamia would only get one touch attack albeit at a higher attack modifier, if not attacking with the dagger as well.
However, the touch is still a natural attack, delivered as part of an attack or full-attack action. Like a wraith's.
Does that sound about right?Largely.
It is true at any rate that natural weapons do not get iterative attacks.
Looking through the PB I have not been able to find any creatures with more than one touch attack.
I must retract my previous statement about lamias being able to do two touch attacks. If the lamia drops the dagger she would only get a single touch attack (at +12 to hit) and her two secondary claw attacks
I find the lamia's entry a bit strange. I wonder if you are holding the charge of a touch spell, could you make an argument that you could use that melee touch attack as part of a full attack action as a secondary natural attack? If the lamia can do it, why can I? (:
I find the lamia's entry a bit strange. I wonder if you are holding the charge of a touch spell, could you make an argument that you could use that melee touch attack as part of a full attack action as a secondary natural attack? If the lamia can do it, why can I? (:
That is actually the question JJ was adressing with the produce flame quote above.
You can only attack once with a touch spell. The lamia can also only attack once with her touch attack, but it is not a spell.
That is actually the question JJ was adressing with the produce flame quote above.
You can only attack once with a touch spell. The lamia can also only attack once with her touch attack, but it is not a spell.
I'm not arguing that. I'm saying the following:
1) I cast vampiric touch with my half-orc wizard.
2) Wait until next round.
3) 5-ft step up to a monster.
4) Two iterative attacks with a great axe (Assuming I have BAB high enough for two attacks)
5) As part of the same full attack action, vampiric touch as a secondary natural attack at a -5 penalty.
I don't *think* this is intended, but the lamia seems like it can do it.
That is actually the question JJ was adressing with the produce flame quote above.
You can only attack once with a touch spell. The lamia can also only attack once with her touch attack, but it is not a spell.
I'm not arguing that. I'm saying the following:
1) I cast vampiric touch with my half-orc wizard.
2) Wait until next round.
3) 5-ft step up to a monster.
4) Two iterative attacks with a great axe (at full bonus, assuming I have BAB high enough for two attacks)
5) As part of the same full attack action, vampiric touch as a secondary natural attack at a -5 penalty.
I don't *think* this is intended, but the lamia seems like it can do it.
I see your point, but I think the main difference is in the lamia's attack not being a spell.