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I'm about to start running Legacy of Fire and one player is wanting to play a Suli (Qadira book). I'm wondering about how balanced the race is. In particular, the two attributes at +2 with no corresponding -2 stat as well as resistances to Acid, cold, electricity and fire at 5 and the elemental assault just seem a bit overpowered.
I'm thinking of allowing either the +2 to STR or +2 to CHA and allowing the player to choose one elemental type (earth, air, fire, or water) and affiliate with and get the resistance to a single type and get a single elemental assault ability.
I'd welcome comments as to ways to ensure that things are balanced.
Thanks!
/Paul
I think enforcing an elemental assault/resistance link is reasonable, but that's mostly a minor issue.
A small proportion of damage a PC takes over their lifetime will be from one particular type of elemental damage. So I don't see how this is much different than Elves and Half-Elves being IMMUNE to Sleep effects (and bonus vs. Enchants), much less the broadly useful Dwarven bonus vs. all Spell Effects. Humans getting a bonus Feat (HUGE for Barbarians or Paladins) and 1 additional maxed Skill (effectively) certainly measures up well, and I think just about all the races do pretty well: Half-Elves probably come out worst, but if you want to Multi-Class they start looking better.
The wording of Elemental Assault forces you to use it all "in one go", so it's basically +3.5 dmg/attack for ONE ENCOUNTER (if enemy doesn't have resistance). And apparently it's useless for Ranged Attacks. ...I just don't really see how this is superior to Humans' Bonus Feat, allowing Weapon Spec/ Grt Weapon Spec for +2 dmg to EVERY ATTACK ALL DAY LONG (with favored weapon), and that is just the simplest 1:1 comparison.
I basically think it's too easy to get hung up on the Stats.
Suli's may well make good Paladins (STR + CHR bonus) but so would Humans, Half-Orcs, or Dwarves.
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I'm thinking of allowing either the +2 to STR or +2 to CHA and allowing the player to choose one elemental type (earth, air, fire, or water) and affiliate with and get the resistance to a single type and get a single elemental assault ability.
Bastards of Erebus had a special trait that made a Tiefling a little bit weaker, so that they fit better with a standard race party.
Going along that route, the Suli could be similarly tweaked with a Trait, making them a bit more suitable for grouping with elves, dwarves, humans, etc. *and* making them more Genasi-like, with an 'imbalance' towards one elemental type. I basically went with the idea you mentioned of focusing them towards one particular element (so their elemental assault and energy resistance were limited to that one element) but also added some other minor flavor abilities appropriate to their elemental focus.
Racial Traits
Sungazer (Suli): Your human blood has proven unable to maintain the delicate balance of all four elements in harmony that is the nature of the Janni. Your fiery blood has overpowered the other elements, and not only do you lack Acid, Cold or Electrical Resistance, but your Elemental Assault ability can only produce Fire damage. Your increased affinity with fire has made you immune to the dazzled condition, and you have a +2 to Fort saves to resist nonlethal damage from environmental heat (and even when you do take such damage, your Fire Resistance still applies). You otherwise have the usual Suli racial characteristics.
Child of the Pearl (Suli): Your human blood cannot balance the elemental forces innate to the Janni, and you are balanced towards the element of water. You do not have Acid, Electrical or Fire Resistance, and when you use your Elemental Assault ability, you only produce Cold damage. On the other hand, you also gain a +2 trait bonus to Swim checks, Fortitude checks to resist drowning and Fortitude checks to avoid nonlethal damage from dehydration. Your body draws sustenance from water, which permeates your being, and you can hold your breath underwater twice as long as others (4x Con score in rounds), and you can go three times as long without water before suffering the effects of dehydration (3 days + 3 hours / point of Con). Children of the Pearl are more varied than other Suli, and you may choose a +2 bonus to Strength, Dexterity *or* Constitution at 1st level, but do not gain a bonus to Charisma.
Stone for Bones (Suli): You lack the inner balance between the four elements that characterizes the Janni, and most Suli, being strongly attuned to the element of earth. You do not have Cold, Electrical or Fire Resistance, and when you use your Elemental Assault ability, you can only choose to inflict Acid damage. You also ignore difficult terrain modifiers in areas of broken earth or sand, but are still penalized by mud, ice, foliage, etc. You replace the Suli racial adjustment to Strength for a +2 to Constitution instead, while retaining the usual +2 to Charisma.
Skybearer (Suli): Your Janni blood has been thinned by your human heritage, and you can only balance the properties of a single element within yourself, that of air. As a result, you lack Acid, Cold and Fire Resistance, and when you use your Elemental Assault property, you can only channel Electrical damage. You get a +2 trait bonus to Jump checks and to Acrobatic checks to mitigate falling damage, and ignore the first 10 ft. of any fall for calculating falling damage. You replace the usual Suli racial adjustment to Strength with a +2 racial bonus to Dexterity, while retaining the usual +2 racial bonus to Charisma.
Reading over the race also made me want to add this Feat;
Extra Assault
Benefit: You gain an additional two uses of your Elemental Assault racial ability per day.
Prerequisite: Elemental Assault racial ability
Alternately, the Elemental Assault could use the new Bardic Music / Rage mechanic of rounds / day rather than uses / day, and the Suli could have 3+Con mod (min 1) rounds per day of Elemental Assault, and be able to use rounds independently, as desired, throughout the day. In that case, Extra Assault would just add 4 more rounds or something.
Another Feat option would be Ranged Assault - Elemental Ray as a Sorcerer of level equal to your HD / character level. Must choose Acid, Cold, Electrical or Fire when you take this feat and that choice must match your elemental focus (Fire for Sungazer, Cold for Child of the Pearl, etc).
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Going along that route, the Suli could be similarly tweaked with a Trait, making them a bit more suitable for grouping with elves, dwarves, humans, etc. *and* making them more Genasi-like, with an 'imbalance' towards one elemental type. I basically went with the idea you mentioned of focusing them towards one particular element (so their elemental assault and energy resistance were limited to that one element) but also added some other minor flavor abilities appropriate to their elemental focus.
I like these alot. They seem a bit more balanced, but also they seem more interesting and also better suited to the player's idea of a elemental bloodline sorcerer. I think I'll propose the above and see if he likes it or not.
Thanks for the good ideas!
/Paul
I'd just allow it as written. I find it to be more important to reward people who are going to play character options that hook well into the setting and storytelling than to worry about a stray +2. If he was wanting to play an "illumian" or something, nerf its ass. If he's taking a Golarion-tied thing, go easy.
I'm thinking about allowing suli, as well as other planetouched (and maybe other creatures) as playable characters in my next campaign. I'd just give suli (and aasimars) a -2 to something, and require all characters with those races to take a mandatory "you get to play something other than the core races" feat.
I'm about to start running Legacy of Fire and one player is wanting to play a Suli (Qadira book). I'm wondering about how balanced the race is. In particular, the two attributes at +2 with no corresponding -2 stat as well as resistances to Acid, cold, electricity and fire at 5 and the elemental assault just seem a bit overpowered.
I'm thinking of allowing either the +2 to STR or +2 to CHA and allowing the player to choose one elemental type (earth, air, fire, or water) and affiliate with and get the resistance to a single type and get a single elemental assault ability.
I'd welcome comments as to ways to ensure that things are balanced.
Thanks!
/Paul
If you are concerned about it, check out the suggestions for playing Tieflings in the Council of Thieves Player's Guide (a free download) on Page 5.
Suli-Janni are about the same power level as Tieflings and Aasimar. In general, I think that "Experience Debt" or "PC Boons" as the least likely to cause arguements. ("PC Boons" would, if anything, cause the other players to want a Tiefling/Aasamar/Suli character in the party.)
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Tieflings and Aasimmars are perfectly balanced, even without XP debts.
they are part of the few monster races balanced against pcs.
so what if the aasimmar gets 2 +2's and no -2. all it gets other than that are the overrated outsider traits, daylight once per day and 3 resistances that'll be useless after 3rd level.
what traits does outsider offer now. free martial weapon proficinecy and darkvision. the proficiency is useless for fighters and any class that already gets it. sorcerers and wizards don't care, it saves the cleric a feat. if you wanted to build a battle cleric, worship Gorum already. the only thing an aasimaars racial mods are good for is a cleric of Sarenrae. which is shoehorned as a healbot anyway.
tieflings
similar thing, their racial modifiers scream rogue or evoker, but the benefits of thier outsider type don't really help them. wizards aren't going to have the strength for a composite bow. and are better off with a light crossbow. the rogue gets a couple of 2 handed weapons, the two weapon fighting tree gives you more sneak attacks. but rogues period are a trap. oh yay darkvision, 2 spells, and a few gold peices can give you that. you'll be fine at level 10. as by then you will be raiding the abyss.
I'd just allow it as written. I find it to be more important to reward people who are going to play character options that hook well into the setting and storytelling than to worry about a stray +2. If he was wanting to play an "illumian" or something, nerf its ass. If he's taking a Golarion-tied thing, go easy.
Thats how I would handle it myself. No worries. The Suli is not imbalanced really so let it go
3 resistances that'll be useless after 3rd level.
I wouldn't say that. They might not be ultra-powerful, but they're far from useless. Nipples on a breastplate are useless. Something that makes stuff like cones of cold or lightning bolt hurt less is never useless.
the only thing an aasimaars racial mods are good for is a cleric of Sarenrae.
Or most other clerics, Or anything else that can use either ability score. You get the other one, too, often quite useful, and you don't get any penalty.
similar thing, their racial modifiers scream rogue or evoker
Yeah, and the other races (except human, half-elf and half-orc) perfectly work with simply everything. And they get stuff like SR 25+ 2xLevel and Meteor Swarms at will... :P
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3 resistances that'll be useless after 3rd level.I wouldn't say that. They might not be ultra-powerful, but they're far from useless. Nipples on a breastplate are useless. Something that makes stuff like cones of cold or lightning bolt hurt less is never useless.
what good is reducing energy damage by 5? the power is so minor it may be as well useless. (another detail rarely remembered)
the only thing an aasimaars racial mods are good for is a cleric of Sarenrae.Or most other clerics, Or anything else that can use either ability score. You get the other one, too, often quite useful, and you don't get any penalty.
no penalty? the penalty is that to use both of your stat boni, you have to be a white mage cleric. what good is exploiting 1 bonus if you can't exploit the other?
Yeah, and the other races (except human, half-elf and half-orc) perfectly work with simply everything. And they get stuff like SR 25+ 2xLevel and Meteor Swarms at will... :P
similar thing, their racial modifiers scream rogue or evoker
was this a joke?
2 spells and a couple coins can buyoff the darkvision. martial weapon proficiency? oh yeah, now my eldritch knight has 1 more caster level. too bad his charisma sucks and he'll have to be gimped on the wizard side. as that's 1 9th level spell spent on damage. as damage spells are outright cheaper on all resources except 1. that 1 exception costing more. spell slots. as all the decent 9th level spells have costly components. guess it might as well be a quickened empowered fireball. but thats a waste of a 9th level spell, except against humanoid mooks.
what good is reducing energy damage by 5?
Better than getting hit full force. A fireball will go from 35 damage to 30, or from 17 to 12 on a save.
They can save your butt.
Compare it to other class abilities:
+1 to attacks against a few (weak to begin with) enemy types. Wow. +1! That will go great with my other +20. Now my 4th attack has a 95% chance to hit instead of 90%!
+2 to praise to appraise nonmagical metal or gem stuff. Fear my mighty power of knowing a little better what mundane crap is worth!
Proficiency with a few martial weapons! I don't believe it! Who would want to be hurt less by energy stuff (and render flaming weapons and the like virtually useless) when I can have a bunch of weapons I'll hardly ever use, anyway, because I'm either a warrior and get those weapons, anyway, or I'm not, and I won't need them.
+2 To a craft or profession! Wow! No one's a better cook than me! Hear that, monsters? I'll kill you! And then I'll sauté you! See the fancy thing on top of the e? I know that because I'm a supergood chef! Ha!
Sure, there is better stuff than the resistances out there, but then again, there's worse.
the power is so minor it may be as well useless. (another detail rarely remembered)
Then almost everything is useless. Let's reduce the game to stuff that makes you 1000 better in attack or defense and ignore the rest! That will get rid of all the big, ugly books, too. We'll just need one rule: "Everything makes you 1000 better in either attack or defense. Fluff is for losers"
no penalty? the penalty is that to use both of your stat boni, you have to be a white mage cleric. what good is exploiting 1 bonus if you can't exploit the other?
You do realise that we're talking about a Roleplaying Game. Not everything needs to be exploited. It's not about winning the game. No highscore involved (except the "most PCs killed in embarrassing ways" score, and that's for GMs only).
Beyond that, I don't agree with your logic that every bonus you cannot "exploit" all the time is a penalty. Or the game would have no bonuses, only penalties!
Look at dwarves' penalties:
According to your logic, dwarves are unplayable, because you need to be a dwarven druid in medium armour, fighting with a battleaxe against giant orc wizards and assassins in a dungeon, whose favourite tactic is to rush at you, spell slinging, and shove you around with their poisoned shoving boards.
And on the aasimar arguments: It works great with:
was this a joke?
I honestly thought you started it. I now suspect you might be serious.
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i was joking too. but i tend to take attributes as a big thing when choosing a race. not as good as the human bonus feat, but in a no human campaign, (which i doubt exists) i like races whose attributes match thier class requirement. personally i like to use attribute bonuses to save points, so i can pick up that odd attribute, the one thats less important to the class, but i'd like for the build (robed finesse clerics with any cousin of the shortsword or fencing sword come to mind) why is there only one race that can (only with 25 point buy) be a spellcasting/channel cleric with the benefits of weapon finesse?
3 resistances that'll be useless after 3rd level.I wouldn't say that. They might not be ultra-powerful, but they're far from useless. Nipples on a breastplate are useless. Something that makes stuff like cones of cold or lightning bolt hurt less is never useless.
the only thing an aasimaars racial mods are good for is a cleric of Sarenrae.Or most other clerics, Or anything else that can use either ability score. You get the other one, too, often quite useful, and you don't get any penalty.
Yeah, and the other races (except human, half-elf and half-orc) perfectly work with simply everything. And they get stuff like SR 25+ 2xLevel and Meteor Swarms at will... :P
similar thing, their racial modifiers scream rogue or evoker
Well, Now I have to include Breastplate Nipples in my game...
