I'm currently creating an adventure where two mature adult white dragons lie in wait to ambush the character party when they pass by them. The characters will have to travel up a steep mountain to its peak where there is gusty winds and snow constantly falls. The difficulty I am having is believing the dragons chance to hide is so low... White dragons have a Dex of 10, which equates to a zero bonus to hide. An mature adult white dragon has 21-HD, so assuming half his skill points went into Hide, he'd have a 10 for hide. Now I just got threw reading concealment, and it does not provide a bonus to hide, so a white dragon completely covered in snow several feet deep with gusty winds that obscure the outline of the dragon, his chance to hide is still only 10 + D20? I understand that the characters will suffer penalties due to the snowfall and the wind, but I think the 100% concealment should be providing a better chance to hide, not just a chance to miss because once the dragons rear up out of the snow, they will no longer be concealed, so what good is the concealment for anyways if it does not improve their ability to blend in with their surroundings? I'm going to have to house rule this saying that the dragons are effectively invisible granting them a +20 to their hide attempt - even though they are not moving, they are large enough to say that they're breathing is equivalent to moving slightly.
Anyone have a better idea?
The players must have a sense capable of detecting the dragons or they won't get a perception check.
If they're laying in the snow (which is constantly falling and drifting due to the high winds) for a day or two (maybe even an hour or two, depending on the snowfall), they will be invisible to the PCs. I would at least give them that bonus. So if you rule it total concealment, then there is no line of sight to them, so no way to visually detect them. If you rule it just a really good stealth check, say, with the invisible bonus, then maybe a really good perception check might still see a suspicious outline. Don't forget the penalty for distance and the weather conditions.
If they've sensed the party's approach, they won't be snoring or chatting or doing anything else audible to give themselves away. Howling winds would definitely screw up hearing their breathing.
The snow would mask their smell.
By the time the PCs are close enough to touch them or taste them, the ambush will be sprung anyway.
That should cover the 5 senses - unless the PCs have other (magical, for example) means of detecting the dragons, this one should be cake.
Unrelated comments in no particular order:
The standard 21HD white dragon has Stealth +16, fyi.
If he has the time to set it up, have him take 10 or 20 on his Stealth check.
Being all white in a white environment would certainly be worth a circumstance bonus (+2, +4 if you're feeling generous).
I am not sure taking-20 on stealth is valid.
One of the conditions for taking 20 is that there must be no penalty for failure - it seems to me that failing this stealth is the difference between pulling of a successful ambush and being caught flatfooted when their prey spots them and strikes first.
That's an awfully big penalty for failure.
The players must have a sense capable of detecting the dragons or they won't get a perception check. . .
I agree with what DM_Blake is saying here. If the Dragons have total concealment then the idea is that they cannot be spotted. So, a Perception check would encompass the other senses, but hearing will be shot due to the howling winds and smell will be shot for the same reason plus the layers of snow covering the dragons.
The dragons really don’t even need to roll a Stealth check here because there is no chance of them being detected by normal senses.
The PC's might get some sort of check to notice two out of place rather oddly shaped snow drifts in their trail, but they would not spot them as dragons. The other thing that might be noticeable would be the steam rising out of the snow drifts from the dragon's breath, but that would probably be immediately blown away by the wind. I'm not sure what type of check that might be if you allowed it: probably Survival or Perception.
Even if PCs are actively looking for ambushes, snow imposes a -4 penalty to Perception checks and heavy snow blocks line of sight beyond 5 feet.
on a related note, I think that it should be errata'd in that black dragons hiding under the water breath through reeds ninja-style.
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I am not sure taking-20 on stealth is valid.
Maybe, maybe not. My interpretation of "penalties for failure" has always been that, upon failure, additional checks of that nature aren't possible or carry a heavy penalty. Since being spotted while hiding doesn't prevent or make harder later Stealth checks against the same target, I allow take 20. Yes, ambushes happen quite often in my games (on both sides of the table).
Since snow is actually a solid material... wouldn't it quallify as cover, rather than concealment.
My understanding is the dragons are not hiding in the sense of using concealment or cover to hide behind something, they are actually buried. Assuming it's been snowing for some time snow might be 8-10' deep and they are essentially under ground (the ground level being the current snow).
There is no perception check to see things that are buried. You should describe the scene in such a way that mentions two drifts of snow without calling attention to them. I agree that a (fairly high) survival check might reveal that the drifts appear to be unusual in some way. The longer they've been buried and the more snow that's fallen the less likely the drifts would look unnatural. Also keep in mind that visibility might be limited to 100' or less and there should be a penalty to any checks through snow flurries.
Since snow is actually a solid material... wouldn't it quallify as cover, rather than concealment.
I used to think so as well but some solid things do in fact give concealment rather than cover. It would still be total cover though and as such the creature is, in general, completely hidden. There is no chance of seeing it.
Since snow is actually a solid material... wouldn't it quallify as cover, rather than concealment.I used to think so as well but some solid things do in fact give concealment rather than cover. It would still be total cover though and as such the creature is, in general, completely hidden. There is no chance of seeing it.
Solid things giving concealment? Where is that said?
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Do the Dragons have tremorsense?
They have to have their eyes/noses exposed to see the PC and breathe.
This should give some sort of perception check:
dragon eyes in the snow..
Very small (tiny? diminuitive?)
Dragons activly hiding
terrain bonuses (coverd by snow)
distance
blowing snow
Without a rule book in front of me, the perception is very hard.
But the perception of the party by the dragons is a piece of cake: distance (white dragons have snow vision)
blowing snow. (white dragons have snow vision)
unless the party has some way of moving stealthy out in the open.....
Do the Dragons have tremorsense?
They have to have their eyes/noses exposed to see the PC and breathe.
They do have blindsense though there really isn't a ruling about whether that would work through snow or not. My impression is that they should be able to use their blindsense through the snow since it's generally tied to sound. As for breathing under the snow, adult white dragons can sculpt ice and snow at will, I don't see this as an issue for them. I could almost see them moving the most obvious path so it goes right above them so they could come out from below the party.
I retrospect I have to agree that there should be some sort of perception check to notice the ambush, even if it's just an instant before. It would be pretty comical to have the party make a perception check only to notice a huge white dragon in the ice beneath their feet :)
You can't take 20 on stealth for a few different reasons, though PF seems to have removed one of them... I can't find the text stating that you don't actually make your Stealth roll until there's a Perception roll opposing it. :P
Also: crouching tiger. (Someone had to...)
I can't find the text stating that you don't actually make your Stealth roll until there's a Perception roll opposing it. :PAs far as I know, that's never been the case.
I know I read it somewhere. I'm thinking now that it must have been Sage Advice. However, it makes a perverted sort of sense: a hide check is, by definition, opposed by a spot check; therefore, by definition, it cannot be made unless a spot check is also being made.
Anyway. The other reasons you can't take 20 to hide are: