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I couldn't agree more. The Pathfinder game and material have gotten me excited about RPG's again. I have been enjoying running the Legacy of Fire adventure path and have been running Pathfinder Society Games at our local game shop. Everyone at Paizo has done an excellent job pulling this entire effort together and I am happy to support their work in every way possible. As a GM, I put an incredible amount of effort into my games so they are top notch. Paizo does the same and makes my life so much easier and the story's, settings, and support material are excellent. Thanks again!
Paizo's taking a battering?
I think the attitude towards Paizo here (unsurprisingly) is overwhelmingly positive.
However, there is nothing wrong with negative feedback either. Keeps Paizo informed of what their customers want.
I kind of agree Treantmonk. I don't think Paizo's been taking a beating, I have seen some folks complaining about certain things in the core rules but basically they are complaining about a system they are more or less committed to. I think in spite of the tone most of it is intended to draw attention to shortcomings of the system and/ or is constructive criticism. I don't see a lot of folks who are just generally bashing the system.
Edit: Now on EN World or elsewhere is another story.
Hey, I get to make the wishy-washy comment that goes like: "I agree and disagree." ;)
I do think that if someone has a problem with a given product that they should comment on that problem. I agree that if Paizo doesn't get this feedback, its easy for the fine people at Paizo to get insulated from what their audience wants, and distance isn't a good thing.
On the other hand, there are times when posts get a bit accusatory ("certainly you couldn't have meant to do X!") or nit-picky. Sometimes a simple statement is all that's really needed.
Paizo makes excellent products. Not perfect products, but no one does. I try to let them know when I have problems with their products, but I have to admit, sometimes I don't take the time to let them know when they do an excellent job, which is what keeps me here.
Unfortunately taking people for granted when they do a consistent job of high quality is part of the human condition, and we really all could do a better job of remembering to let others know when we appreciate them.
And on that sappy, feel good note . . .
I too very much appreciate all that the Paizo staff have done for this game. Except for Cosmo. He deserves a beating. Just for the hell of it! ~grins~
The beatings will continue until morale improves.
Yes. Unfortunatly, it will take a lot of beatings for my morale to improve. I hope that Cosmo can handle it.
Seen more than a few posts accusing Paizo staff of being lazy And honestly more than a few posts that seemed to lack an appreciation for the effort put into this.
I felt I need to comment. Especially after reading a post from James about the hours/week put in by staffers.
I hadn't seen those posts.
Any time now...
Seen more than a few posts accusing Paizo staff of being lazy And honestly more than a few posts that seemed to lack an appreciation for the effort put into this.
I felt I need to comment. Especially after reading a post from James about the hours/week put in by staffers.
One of the big frustrations with Wizards of the Coast was due to an understaffed editorial pit under corporate pressure to keep cranking out books. Paizo being disciplined and trying to fight the urge to crank out material at the pace demanded by fans is not a failure, it's good stewardship. Paizo is a small company and they are committed to staying small. The tight nit nature of the company and the quality of their staff are the reason their products are so good.
If you take a step back that post was more about someone frustrated that Paizo didn't shine their light of awesome into the corner of the game that they feel is cool and special. A lot of folks don't realize how small staff size puts very real constraints on the companies ability to get stuff out the door. If they focus on cranking out product they will lose the quality edge which their products have enjoyed to date.
Seen more than a few posts accusing Paizo staff of being lazy And honestly more than a few posts that seemed to lack an appreciation for the effort put into this.
I felt I need to comment. Especially after reading a post from James about the hours/week put in by staffers.
One of the big frustrations with Wizards of the Coast was due to an understaffed editorial pit under corporate pressure to keep cranking out books. Paizo being disciplined and trying to fight the urge to crank out material at the pace demanded by fans is not a failure, it's good stewardship. Paizo is a small company and they are committed to staying small. The tight nit nature of the company and the quality of their staff are the reason their products are so good.
If you take a step back that post was more about someone frustrated that Paizo didn't shine their light of awesome into the corner of the game that they feel is cool and special. A lot of folks don't realize how small staff size puts very real constraints on the companies ability to get stuff out the door. If they focus on cranking out product they will lose the quality edge which their products have enjoyed to date.
I admit I have no context for where the "lazy" comment came from, but it might not have been in regard to material produced. In fact I would have found that a surprise if it was. If I had to guess it was either made from someone that felt that game mechanics weren't analyzed in depth (too much focus on fun and not enough on function) or from someone that felt the game was too close to 3.5 and that it should have built its own vehicle instead of retro-fit an older one. Those are the types of comments I've seen. Slow output comments hasn't been something I have run into, in fact I've seen more of the opposite. But of course, as I said, I am totally ignorant to what the context of the comment that Weylin heard was.
This was the post that strongly prompted my post:
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/general/removalOfECLs&page=1#11
Reminded me that there are several times on various boards for various companies that people sometime forget what a small staff many game companies have and how much actual work goes into these products.
-Weylin
Having read the entire thread, I think you mislead the comment within the context of it. The poster made it clear that he wasn't calling the staff lazy, just that a single decision was what he classified a "lazy" decision (not developing a game mechanic yet but instead pushing it onto the DM's lap). He admitted the term perhaps wasn't the best.
If you take a step back that post was more about someone frustrated that Paizo didn't shine their light of awesome into the corner of the game that they feel is cool and special. A lot of folks don't realize how small staff size puts very real constraints on the companies ability to get stuff out the door. If they focus on cranking out product they will lose the quality edge which their products have enjoyed to date.
Actually, there are setting a pretty decent pace while still maintaining a pretty decent quality standard. In fact, some people have commented that it's "too much too fast".
The main problem is that there are people who want stuff that isn't there yet, and won't be for some time yet.
That isn't really a speed issue, it's a focus issue: Paizo seems to have a course in mind for the game. Not everyone agrees - some people want them to focus on monstrous PCs sooner, some want a modern/futuristic Pathfinder rulebook, some want psionics...
The thing is that Paizo wants to focus on what they consider the game core. Get that right, give it some time in the sun, and only then focus on other stuff.
It's all a matter of taste and preference.
After reading the post, it seems to me that the Poster is not only a big fan of Pathfinder, but a big fan of Paizo too.
He clearly disagrees with the removal of ECL's from Pathfinder and is pointing out his disagreement with some rationale.
I don't get the sense that is he is "battering" Paizo at all.
Here's a guide for you:
"I'm saddened by their decision to..." a fan who respects Paizo, and likes Pathfinder, but wishes (like most of us) that one thing or another had been done differently with Pathfinder and is communicating that opinion.
"I'm unsurprised with their typically poor decision to..." Paizo is being battered.
See the difference?
Creative Director
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Seeing it differently *shrug* no surprise on the internet.
I certainly saw it the same way you did, Weylin. And that's why I posted what I did.
That said... I really appreciate the words of support threads. One of the requirements of being in this industry is you need SUPER thick skin, but even the thickest skin won't help too much if you put as much work as we did into a book only to see the same issue get harped on over and over, especially if it's an issue that's not actually a problem with the book at all but with a misconception about what the book was always intended to do.
Paizo's going through some pretty major growing pains right now, is all. At least they're different than the abandonment pains we went through with the loss of the magazine license and then the loss of the game edition we prefer! :P
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That said... I really appreciate the words of support threads. One of the requirements of being in this industry is you need SUPER thick skin, but even the thickest skin won't help too much if you put as much work as we did into a book only to see the same issue get harped on over and over, especially if it's an issue that's not actually a problem with the book at all but with a misconception about what the book was always intended to do.Paizo's going through some pretty major growing pains right now, is all. At least they're different than the abandonment pains we went through with the loss of the magazine license and then the loss of the game edition we prefer! :P
You're all doing a bloody fantastic job. I subscribe because you deserve the support and predictable income, not because it is cheaper for me (I doubt that it is) or because I can use all of the stuff (I barely have time to read it).
If I were a 'C" level person at WotC, I'd be spitting tacks over what you have managed to achieve due to the OGL, talent and hard work. Hopefully that redresses the balance somewhat for past issues.
Keep it up :)
I'm not that new to Paizo, but you have my words of support as well.
I don't like everything you do (PF nymphs look too icy! And other things), but the vast majority of things.
Keep up the great work!
I too am very happy with Pathfinder. Best $50 I've spent in a long while and the Bestiary is a good buy too. Doesn't work well for everyone, but it works well for my group and myself.
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I would sacrifice my left nut to these people if I thought it would help. As it is, I subscribe to everything I can, because PAIZO has the best community of Writers, Artists, players and DMs in the entire RPG community. The reason I chose Burnt Offerings to do as a play is testament enough for the quality of writing. I've been doing theater for almost 30 years, I recognize a great story when I see one.
And Raise a Glass to all those stalwart supporters that are on the Discussion Boards making this place feel like family.
See as many of you as possible at the Lucky Lab Tavern in Portland in November.
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+1 for the support. If it's not clear elsethread, I absolutely adore Paizo.
That said, constructive and well thought input is a wonderful thing. Battering, OTOH, serves no real purpose.
Once something goes to print, all the whine and cheese in the world can't recall it. If a reprint addresses it, good for you, but what purpose does it really SERVE?
I wish I had a purple and white racing striped pony with horseshoes of the zephyr, that doesn't make it so.
This is a fantasy game, enjoy the fantasy. That's what it's there for, afterall.
That said... I really appreciate the words of support threads. One of the requirements of being in this industry is you need SUPER thick skin, but even the thickest skin won't help too much if you put as much work as we did into a book only to see the same issue get harped on over and over, especially if it's an issue that's not actually a problem with the book at all but with a misconception about what the book was always intended to do.Paizo's going through some pretty major growing pains right now, is all. At least they're different than the abandonment pains we went through with the loss of the magazine license and then the loss of the game edition we prefer! :P
You're all doing a bloody fantastic job. I subscribe because you deserve the support and predictable income, not because it is cheaper for me (I doubt that it is) or because I can use all of the stuff (I barely have time to read it).
If I were a 'C" level person at WotC, I'd be spitting tacks over what you have managed to achieve due to the OGL, talent and hard work. Hopefully that redresses the balance somewhat for past issues.
Keep it up :)
I would like to concur with my other half: You have done a fantastic job and revitalised the gaming in our household. We appreciate it and will continue to be supportive (though game product vs Brock Jr college fund.... hmmmm tough one).
Thank you.
Mrs. Brock