Good stuff
Thanks for the post and clearing up, in my mind, the tangefoot bag. Now my rogue will invest in more and sneak attack away.
So the rules are inconsistent with each other, nice. So how do you handle specific vs general? The rule in the description of Dexterity being more like a specific rule to me and the rule at page 555 seems more like a general rule?
Again, no, they do not. Please re-read what I wrote, or read the rules for ability damage/drain. Ability damage/drain does not reduce your stat in any way. It works exactly like nonlethal damage -- you keep a counter, and when that counter equals or exceeds your score in a stat, you fall unconscious (Note that it also contains a slight change in functionality from 3.5's implementation: you only take a penalty every 2 points of ability damage/drain, regardless of whether your stat is even or odd). Ability damage or drain never reduces your stat to 0 or any other number.
In fact, the only way to have your Dexterity reduced to 0 is to become helpless.
|
Thank you for the clarification, even if it seemed that you had to re-write it for me.
The elven chainmain reference with the armor denying the dexterity bonus to AC is what triggered what you were trying to say with me.
I did not mean to be so stubborn but the numerous conversations I have had with my play group had helped me deveolp my previously discussed stand on this rule. I am glad you all used my own argument to prove me wrong, I would not have believed it otherwise.
By the way, I am truthfull to a fault, so dont take that as being jerkish. I just say what I believe because I know there are people on this forum that know a whole hell of a lot more than I do. It usually uncovers any misconception I might have had on a rule or idea.
Thanks, Curt
Good stuffThanks for the post and clearing up, in my mind, the tangefoot bag. Now my rogue will invest in more and sneak attack away.
Wait...what? I thought we established quite clearly that a TANGLEFOOT BAG DOES NOT MAKE SOMEONE SNEAK ATTACKABLE!
Seriously this is like the easiest rules question ever, why does everyone have such widely varying opinions. Next thing you know we'll be arguing about what hit die a barbarian has!
Back to the Original comment regarding the Tanglefoot bag...
The target becomes entangled on a successful attack roll with the bag taking a -4 penalty to dexterity and a -2 to attack rolls.
They must then pass a DC 15 reflex (with the new Dex -4) or be glued to the floor unable to move .... This line refers to being held immobile as also referenced in the Entangled condition.Looking up immobile the closest reference in the rules is Helpless so a tanglefoot bag forces a saving throw or become helpless. helpless targets have a dexterity set to 0 (-5) and can be sneak attacked and can even be attacked with a coup-de-grace.
Back...
You were doing pretty well up until this. The target becomes ENTANGLED there you just said it. Entangled =/= helpless or immobile or any other such nonsense it means Entangled which is a very specific condition. They move at half speed, are at -2 to attack -4 to dexterity, make concentration checks to cast spells etc etc NONE of this allows anyone to sneak attack them. Heck nowhere in the write up for tanglefoot bag does it say the word immobile though it does say someone failing their save (after being successfully hit by the bag) is unable to move. Unable to move I would imagine means no move actions.
|
You were doing pretty well up until this. The target becomes ENTANGLED there you just said it. Entangled =/= helpless or immobile or any other such nonsense it means Entangled which is a very specific condition. They move at half speed, are at -2 to attack -4 to dexterity, make concentration checks to cast spells etc etc NONE of this allows anyone to sneak attack them. Heck nowhere in the write up for tanglefoot bag does it say the word immobile though it does say someone failing their save (after being successfully hit by the bag) is unable to move. Unable to move I would imagine means no move actions.
I hear what your saying (why should entangled lead to something else other than entangle?) but the rules in the Tanglefoot bag and entangled both indicate a more severe penalty on a failed save with the right conditions...
An entangled creature takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to Dexterity and must make a DC 15 Reflex save or be glued to the floor, unable to move.
The character is ensnared. Being entangled impedes movement, but does not entirely prevent it unless the bonds are anchored to an immobile object or tethered by an opposing force.
A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy.
So as you read this a failed save prevents movement which is the same as being held. I agree with you that Helpless is a little over zealous which is why I suggested going with pinned instead.
A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is flat-footed. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take.
If you rule Helpless or Pinned, either way rogues can sneak attack...
Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.
A pinned creature cannot move and is flat-footed.
Lastly You could be REALLY lenient and rule that you instead gain the grappled condition, this does in fact prevent rogues from sneak attacking but by the rules you can still move while grappled which doesn't match with the description of the Tanglefoot bag effect.
Theres no uniform rules for these sorts of things ive noticed, web grapples, entangle spell and tanglefoot bag have different effects, etc. And perhaps they do need a little more clarity but I cant see any reason a rogue shouldnt be able to use a tanglefoot bag to sneak attack. Its like saying a rogue cant use a smokestick to make a stealth roll...
So as you read this a failed save prevents movement which is the same as being held. I agree with you that Helpless is a little over zealous which is why I suggested going with pinned instead.
Absolutely 100% incorrect. These are some of the wildest, craziest rules assumptions I've ever come across quite frankly.
Prevents movement is....preventing movement. Period. Held as in spell Hold Person prevents any action, movement, makes you helpless. If you are unable to move it means you don't get a move action. Yup, that's all. Stop trying to make the tanglefoot bag broken.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
|
@Zurai and Quijenoth regarding Dex 0, ability damage/drain, and unconsciousness. You are right, I was thinking 3.5 ability damage/drain. Dex 0 applies to inanimate creatures like some plants that are incapable of movement, but not helpless. Dex damage/drain = Dex score results in unconsciousness.
@Quijenoth regarding tanglefoot bags. Entangled condition does not mean helpless, even if you are "unable to move." "Unable to move" would be the bottoms of your feet glued to the floor... you can still duck, dodge, and defend yourself (albeit with the associated penalties from the entangled condition since you are covered in glue), even if you cannot move from the square you're standing in. Extrapolating some condition other than the entangled condition from a tanglefoot bag pretty clearly goes against the intent.
EDIT: @meatrace: I wouldn't even read "unable to move" as denying you a move action. There's a lot you can do with a move action other than move. I'd read "unable to move" as speed on all movement forms (land, fly, swim, climb, etc.) is reduced to 0. Nothing about this in RAW, but DM call on reducing (Su) flight speeds to 0 IF the tanglefoot bag hit you in mid-air... since presumably the magic can still propel you along without wings flapping, etc. Conversely I'd make winged fliers size Medium or smaller hit with a tanglefoot bag and failing the save fall to the ground instantly to include falling damage. Again, not in RAW but sure makes a lot of sense. Probably overpowered too, but highly situational.
I'd rule the tanglefoot bag issue the same way as Charlie Bell does:
If there's a failed save after being hit with a tanglefoot bag, every movement speed is reduzed to 0. Things like reloading a light crossbow (usually a move action) aren't hindered in any way.
EDIT: sorry for the thread resurection. Did not look at the dates and was searching for something else when I came upon this thread.