Am I the only one who thinks that the "Invisible creature is..." table on page 563 in PFRPG Core book dosn't make any sense?
Invisible creature is... Perception
In combat or speaking -20
Moving at half speed -5
moving at full speed -10
Running or charging -20
Not moving -40
Using stealth stealth check+20
Some distance away +1 per 10 feet
Behind an obstacle(door) +5
Behind an obstacle (stone wall) +15
Ok first of all, how do you do read this table? It would seem that some of the figures ( the first five figures in the perception collum ) are penalties to the one searching for the invisible creature. I say this because i cant believe that the DC for noticing a still invisible would get a -40 modifier, so this has to be the penalty to the perceiver right? But then the last four figures doesnt make sence since it should be harder to notice something behind a wall or door? So these are modifiers to the DC as opposed to modifiers to the perception check?
And even then it doesnt make any sense. Why would it be harder to detect someone who is running or charging than someone moving at half speed?
The modifiers get progressevly larger the more noise the invisible creature is making until the "not moving line" where the biggest modifier is given to the least noisy action!
Have i completely missed something?
Invisible creature is... PerceptionIn combat or speaking -20
Moving at half speed -5
moving at full speed -10
Running or charging -20
Not moving -40
Using stealth stealth check+20
Some distance away +1 per 10 feet
Behind an obstacle(door) +5
Behind an obstacle (stone wall) +15
These are +/- to the number the person performing the perception check is opposing.
The invisible creature is in combat or speaking? The person making a perception check has to beat a DC 20 points lower than they would if the person is not in combat.
The only one this breaks down for is the Not Moving one, which should probably be +40 rather than -40.
Invisible creature is not moving? +40 to the DC of the perception check to detect makes more sense than -40.
If the invisible character is also using stealth, the DC of the perception check is an opposed check against the invisible character's stealth check +20. On top of that, you could also add +1 to the DC for each 10 feet of distance, and +X for obstacles such as doors and walls. I'd also say you could add an additional +40 to the DC of the stealthed character if that stealthing character is not moving.
I think the only problem with that table is that Not Moving should be +40 instead of -40.
In that case consider this. Someone is invisible and has a stealth skill of +0
If he moves at half speed the DC for detecting him would be 40(for invisibility) -5 (for moving at half speed) TOTAL DC 35
But the DC for detecting the same person while stealthing would be stealth+20, a DC of 30 on an average roll.
How would that make sense?
In that case consider this. Someone is invisible and has a stealth skill of +0
If he moves at half speed the DC for detecting him would be 40(for invisibility) -5 (for moving at half speed) TOTAL DC 35
But the DC for detecting the same person while stealthing would be stealth+20, a DC of 30 on an average roll.
How would that make sense?
The entry says that the base DC for detecting someone invisible (and active) within 30 feet is Perception check DC 20. (The DC to pinpoint their exact location is +20 but just to detect their presence is 20.)
So if someone has a stealth skill of +0 and is not attempting to employ stealth beyond the invisibility, their DC for moving at half speed would be 20 -5, total DC 15.
The DC for detecting that same person while stealthing would be stealth +20, for a DC of d20+0+20. If they're moving half speed it would be d20+0+20-5 for a DC of d20+15.
I'm not sure where you're getting that 40 in your post unless it's to pinpoint the exact location. In which case, the numbers still scale the same. The sneaking character gets all the bonuses that would otherwise apply, they just get to add their stealth check on top of it.
I'm not sure where you're getting that 40 in your post unless it's to pinpoint the exact location. In which case, the numbers still scale the same. The sneaking character gets all the bonuses that would otherwise apply, they just get to add their stealth check on top of it.
Based on what you said:
The invisible creature is in combat or speaking? The person making a perception check has to beat a DC 20 points lower than they would if the person is not in combat.
Well, if the person is not in combat he would be standing still (DC 40 to notice), so -20 would make it DC 20. Thats what i thought you meant :)
I thought that you implied that the base DC for noticing someone Invisible was 40 and that the other modifiers like -5(for moving at half speed) was applied to this figure.
So this is what I have come to understand: The base DC for noticing someone invisible is 20 and it is to this figure that the other modifiers are applied. And when you're standig totally still the DC would be 40? Is that about correct?
Maybe it should read as:
The DC to notice an invisible creature which is active but not moving any distance or talking is DC 20. To pinpoint the exact location of the invisible creature add +20 to the DC. Apply any relevant modifiers
Invisible creature is... Perception DC modifiers
In combat or speaking -20
Moving at half speed -5
Moving at full speed -10
Running or charging -20
Not moving +20
Using stealth +stealth check
Some distance away +1 per 10 feet
Behind an obstacle(door) +5
Behind an obstacle (stone wall) +15
Actually, the table reads -40, but I think it should be +40.
So if someone were invisible, and within 30 feet, and standing still, the DC to detect would be 60.
(Base DC 20 + 40.)
Note that I'm making a distinction between "not in combat" and "not moving." I read that to mean the person is making a conscious effort not to move, not simply that they're not taking a move action this round.
Someone is invisible. They're within 30 feet of the person detecting.
DC is 20 to know someone is there.
The person is in combat or talking? DC is 0 to know someone is there. (20 - 20).
The person is not moving. (Not moving their arms or anything.) DC is 60 to know someone is there. (20 + 40).
The person is moving at half speed. DC is 15 to know someone is there. (20 - 5).
The person is moving at half speed and employing stealth to do so. DC is d20+stealth modifier+15 to know someone is there. (d20+stealth+20-15).
Of course maybe that is supposed to be 40 instead of +40. In which case I think what you're saying would be correct. Perhaps the PRD will be updated to reflect the correct number. *goes and checks PRD*
Actually, the table reads -40, but I think it should be +40.
So if someone were invisible, and within 30 feet, and standing still, the DC to detect would be 60.
(Base DC 20 + 40.)
Yeah ok, the modifier for standing still should be +40. (for a total of DC 60)
Another thing to consider:
Under stealth it says that you can stealth up to half your speed without penalty. So the -5 perception DC modifier for detecting invisible creatures moving at half speed should not apply if the creature is stealthing..
Agree?
Actually, the table reads -40, but I think it should be +40.
So if someone were invisible, and within 30 feet, and standing still, the DC to detect would be 60.
(Base DC 20 + 40.)
Yeah ok, the modifier for standing still should be +40. (for a total of DC 60)
Another thing to consider:
Under stealth it says that you can stealth up to half your speed without penalty. So the -5 perception DC modifier for detecting invisible creatures moving at half speed should not apply if the creature is stealthing..
Agree?
Good question. I have no idea.
I would tend to say that -5 for moving half speed invisible would still apply because it's applying to the invisibility modifier, not the base stealth modifier, but that's just an interpretation.
Actually, the table reads -40, but I think it should be +40.
So if someone were invisible, and within 30 feet, and standing still, the DC to detect would be 60.
(Base DC 20 + 40.)
Yeah ok, the modifier for standing still should be +40. (for a total of DC 60)
Another thing to consider:
Under stealth it says that you can stealth up to half your speed without penalty. So the -5 perception DC modifier for detecting invisible creatures moving at half speed should not apply if the creature is stealthing..
Agree?
Good question. I have no idea.
I would tend to say that -5 for moving half speed invisible would still apply because it's applying to the invisibility modifier, not the base stealth modifier, but that's just an interpretation.
If I should stick to my interpretation of the RAW I WOULD apply the -5, but the stealth skill description goes a long way to say that, as long as you're stealthing you're just as easy to notice when standing still as if you were moving up to half speed. I think this should count wether you're invisible or not.