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Umm... flurry of blows basically gives the monk the two-weapon fighting feats...Yes of course, so therefore does FOB mean a character with monk levels can't take TWF separately as a feat?
Hap
He can, but he can't combine the two. With a monk weapon or unarmed, he's better off going with the flurry as he gets a BAB bonus. But if he wants to wield two short swords (not a monk weapon) he'd need the feat.
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He can, but he can't combine the two. With a monk weapon or unarmed, he's better off going with the flurry as he gets a BAB bonus. But if he wants to wield two short swords (not a monk weapon) he'd need the feat.Umm... flurry of blows basically gives the monk the two-weapon fighting feats...Yes of course, so therefore does FOB mean a character with monk levels can't take TWF separately as a feat?
Hap
It's not the combining of the TWF and Flurry I'm interested in its the abiliy for the monk to make unarmed attacks with different parts of the body.
P58 PCRPG
"Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a monk gains Improved
Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be
with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk
may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is
no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking
unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus
on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes."So, using the TWF feats, not FOB, can I strike with a leg for my off-hand attack?
Hap
If you're a monk, you use flurry for unarmed attacks. Therefore, the answer to your question is, no.
It's not the combining of the TWF and Flurry I'm interested in its the abiliy for the monk to make unarmed attacks with different parts of the body.
P58 PCRPG
"Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a monk gains Improved
Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be
with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk
may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is
no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking
unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus
on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes."So, using the TWF feats, not FOB, can I strike with a leg for my off-hand attack?
Hap
It's my understanding that FoB is TWF built into the monk class using the monk's HD as BAB. Using that assumption, TWF will always be inferior to FoB as it falls behind using the monk's BAB (it's stated right there in the description of FoB). Due to this fact I would say no, a monk cant apply TWF to unarmed attacks, but can when using non monk weapons, just as others have stated.
So, using the TWF feats, not FOB, can I strike with a leg for my off-hand attack?
Hap
Quoting the rules...
Two-Weapon Fighting
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get
one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6
penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary
hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when
you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two
ways. First, if your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are
reduced by 2 each. An unarmed
strike is always considered
light.
... the answer is: only if your off-hand is empty.
Two weapon fighting allows you to make an attack with the off-hand weapon. If you are holding a weapon in your off hand you must use that weapon. If your off-hand is empty you can make an unarmed strike. Since all limbs can be used for unarmed strikes you can kick or headbutt as an off-hand attack, only if your off-hand would otherwise be able to do it.If you are holding a double weapon, or a one-handed, or a light weapon in your off-hand you can still combine it with unarmed strikes. The unarmed strike must however be the primary attack and can be a punch (if the primary hand is free), a kick or headbutt while the off-hand attack is made with the off-hand weapon.
[EDIT: Personally I might be inclined to allow off-hand kicks even if the character does not have the off-hand free. But it would depend on the situation and I would never allow it in combination with two-handed attacks]
I can see that its one interpretation that, given FOB effectively gives the TWF chain, a monk cannot take TWF feats but its doesn't say that anywhere and I'd say its far from clear from other rules elsewhere.
After all a non-monk can take TWF and choose to use an unarmed or an armed strike for his off-hand attack.
Hap
Monks can take the TWF feat, they are just not able to combine it with FoB.
If you chose to attack with weapons other than the special monk weapons, you could use the TWF feat (meeting ALL rules that apply to TWF)
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I think I would rule that you can use an off hand unarmed attack even with something in your off hand( by using knees, elbows, feet ). However, if a shield is in your off hand you would lose the shield bonus to AC for that round as you would be contorting your body into positions that make the shield ineffective for defensive purposes. ( i.e. you can't really keep the shield up and try to kick someone in the head at the same time. )
Actually I don't understand why you can't use monk weapons with TWF. You just wouldn't get the advantages that come with flurry of blows (being able to mix in unarmed and monk-weapon strikes as you're not FOB).
In any case, this is my interpretation, but the next point is that if you can use TWF can you use any limb to make the off-hand attack (lets assume for the moment that the off-hand is empty and therefore effectively an unarmed strike)
I think you are looking at this the wrong way.
The reason why monks are specifically mentioned on the TWF rules is that monks who FoB effectively reap all the benefits of the TWF feat chain. Therefore you cannot combine TWF feats with FoB.
IF, however, a monk chose the TWF feats and decided to use them without the FoB, they could do so on the same terms as any other character.
E.g. A fighter can also make a kick when fighting with a shield (logically) but to simulate this he would have to take the TWF penalties and lose his shieldbonus to AC. And under no conditions would he be able to combine it with THweapons.
There is basically nothing wrong with making unarmed attacks in combination with normal weapon attacks or with holding something in your hands. But as soon as you try to gain additional benefits beyond those intentioned by the rules, you are effectively trying to break the rules.
I stated what the rules say on the topic in my first post as well as how I would enforce them. As long as the player is not getting undue benefits I think it is OK to improvise. But you cannot use TWF with Two-handed weapons or with shields.
In D&D history there have been 4 major styles of combat:
- One-handed style
- Two-weapon style
- Two-handed style
- Weapon and shield style
Unarmed attacks can logically be combined with the one-handed style which effectively becomes an approximation to two-weapon style. I think keeping that in mind might help you understand why the rules are as they are.
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The rules while fighting with a shield are fairly self explanatory. If you use the shield to attack you don't get the bonus to ac. Unless you have Improved shield bash. I don't see that that would change. Given the rules you should be able to make 1 off-hand attack and x main hand attacks. If you have a shield in your main hand and have imp shield bash you should be able to take your full attacks with your shield and one attack with a foot and maintain the ac bonus. However, what are you carrying in your off hand? Whatever it is probably can't be used at the same time.
As I see it.....
Phlmore, the Gnomish Marauder (Monk 5, Illusionist 2) has...
1) A BAB of 4
2) Uses a BAB of 6 for flurry of blows
3) has a dagger in each hand
4) The two weapon fighting feat. In ADDITION to the FoB.
In a given melee round he could:
a) attack with two daggers. This gives him +2/+2
b) Attack with a foot and a dagger at +2/+2
c) Attack with just his feet (unarmed strike) and as he only has monk weapons in play he uses +4/+4/+1 and can spend Ki for an extra one.
In short, unles he gains some sort of very special weapon, he has next to no use for regular 2WF.
Batts
It is still somewhat unclear to me what exactly you are wanting to do. Why does it matter to you if you can use the two together--what is the end result you want for your character? Letting us know that might aid in getting a proper response to your question.OK, that would probably help although there are some sub-questions that are relevant in their own right, secondary to the specific build I have in mind...
Monk 1/Ftr 19
Take the TWF chain of feats all the way to get 7 attacks. For Weapon Training take "Close Weapons" as your primary choice.
Use a spiked heavy shield in your main hand and keep your off-hand empty for unarmed strikes.
Wear a monk robe to get d8 unarmed damage for your unarmed attacks
As you're a monk you can not only use your off-hand for unarmed strikes you can also use your feet to make trip attacks or other strikes.
You can disarm/trip/ even sunder etc with your 'off-hand' with all the bonuses from Weapon training to your CMB and damage.
Hap
So, it seems from what you're saying that you want to dip into monk levels so that you get a 1d8 unarmed attack when wielding a shield as your main attack weapon?
According to the shield under equipment: Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a light shield, using it as an off-hand weapon.
I don't think shields are meant to be used as weapons in the primary hand. This seems a fair bit of stretching the rules in an attempt to gain very small bonuses. The same effect could be produced by TWF and wielding a long sword with a shield and the appropriate feats. You'd lose a +1 from either the shield attack/damage or the sword, but you'd gain automatically confirmed crits at 20. Using a spiked gauntlet you could do the same and get the same bonuses from all abilities just losing the 1d8 damage.
As a DM I'd much rather reward a character that tries to go with a good concept in the best/most sensible way taking a few penalties that can be improved, rather than someone trying to do backflips through arbitrary holes in rules that hurt my brain.
So are you wanting to attack with the shield and then use FOB with your other hand and feet, head, etc. all in the same round? Or do you just want to have the shield there for defense?No, the point is you're NOT using FOB, you're TWF (and hence able to use the Shield feats to keep defence nd still attack with it.
You're TWF with your other hand, feet etc....
Hap
Ok everyone, I see what he's asking for.
This is the setup :
Long Sword in Right Hand.
Shield in Left Hand.
Monk Unarmed Abilities.
Use TWF to make one Sword Attack (Primary) and one Kick attack (Off-Hand), while keeping his shield bonus.
I personally don't see any reason why it wouldn't work. I don't think you need to take Monk to do it though, an Unarmed Attack is an Unarmed Attack, you could do it with Improved Unarmed Attack I believe.
Ok everyone, I see what he's asking for.
This is the setup :
Long Sword in Right Hand.
Shield in Left Hand.
Monk Unarmed Abilities.Use TWF to make one Sword Attack (Primary) and one Kick attack (Off-Hand), while keeping his shield bonus.
I personally don't see any reason why it wouldn't work. I don't think you need to take Monk to do it though, an Unarmed Attack is an Unarmed Attack, you could do it with Improved Unarmed Attack I believe.
If the setup were that simple I think I'd agree, but from what I've read it seems a bit more convoluted.
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Ok everyone, I see what he's asking for.
This is the setup :
Long Sword in Right Hand.
Shield in Left Hand.
Monk Unarmed Abilities.Use TWF to make one Sword Attack (Primary) and one Kick attack (Off-Hand), while keeping his shield bonus.
I personally don't see any reason why it wouldn't work. I don't think you need to take Monk to do it though, an Unarmed Attack is an Unarmed Attack, you could do it with Improved Unarmed Attack I believe.
Yeah I was getting the same impression too however its not possible with the monk unarmed attack...
when a monk is unarmed he does not have an offhand attack thus in any round he can choose to either swing his sword, use an unarmed attack (kick, elbow, knee, head, etc.) or bash with his shield.
TWF will allow him to only attack with his shield as an offhand attack because his unarmed strike is not allowable as an offhand weapon per the monk unarmed strike entry.
He could, as you say, swing his sword and then kick someone but would need to use his full attack option and use an iterative attack. he would still retain his shield.
He could also flurry with his unarmed attacks while still holding his sword and shield.
If however he decided to take Improved unarmed strike without dipping into monk he would have to use either his primary attack action or his off-hand TWF attack. using his off-hand attack while could be done with the shield in hand would no retain the AC bonus.
There is no sword. He is using his shield in his primary hand for a shield bash and using an unarmed strike in his off hand.
Use a spiked heavy shield in your main hand and keep your off-hand empty for unarmed strikes.
Wear a monk robe to get d8 unarmed damage for your unarmed attacks
As you're a monk you can not only use your off-hand for unarmed strikes you can also use your feet to make trip attacks or other strikes.
You can disarm/trip/ even sunder etc with your 'off-hand' with all the bonuses from Weapon training to your CMB and damage.
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There is no sword. He is using his shield in his primary hand for a shield bash and using an unarmed strike in his off hand.
Use a spiked heavy shield in your main hand and keep your off-hand empty for unarmed strikes.
Wear a monk robe to get d8 unarmed damage for your unarmed attacks
As you're a monk you can not only use your off-hand for unarmed strikes you can also use your feet to make trip attacks or other strikes.
You can disarm/trip/ even sunder etc with your 'off-hand' with all the bonuses from Weapon training to your CMB and damage.
sword or no I'm sure you cant use a shield in your primary hand
There is no sword. He is using his shield in his primary hand for a shield bash and using an unarmed strike in his off hand.
Use a spiked heavy shield in your main hand and keep your off-hand empty for unarmed strikes.
Wear a monk robe to get d8 unarmed damage for your unarmed attacks
As you're a monk you can not only use your off-hand for unarmed strikes you can also use your feet to make trip attacks or other strikes.
You can disarm/trip/ even sunder etc with your 'off-hand' with all the bonuses from Weapon training to your CMB and damage.
sword or no I'm sure you cant use a shield in your primary hand
Why not? Technicly you could Duel Weild Shields. You just lose the AC from your mainhand one unless you have Improved Shieldbash. We have a player doing it in our game now. Duel Shields, Throw Anything, Shield of returning. Hellow Captain America! :(
The shield bash only in the off hand was answered in another thread. Can't find it now, of course.
...answered how? :)
The shield bash only in the off hand was answered in another thread. Can't find it now, of course....answered how? :)
Not at all. It was batted back and forth so someone will say it was "solved" and now I dispute that claim so we'll end up with another thread (or threadjack) on the discussion where mostly the same people will rehash mostly the same arguments for all the same reasons to the exact same effect as when it was done last time.
You can only use FoB with unarmed attacks. I dont know if its legal or not to combine TWF with FoB, but I do know FoB is a full round attack meaning you are doing it for the entire round.
Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.
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If the FoB itself is a full round attack you have no room left to TWF seperately since TWF'ing is only used during full round attacks itself. If you try to use the sword and shield during the FoB you are violating the rules of FoB.
In short you can't use the anything other than a monk weapon while using FoB.
So are you wanting to attack with the shield and then use FOB with your other hand and feet, head, etc. all in the same round? Or do you just want to have the shield there for defense?No, the point is you're NOT using FOB, you're TWF (and hence able to use the Shield feats to keep defence nd still attack with it.
You're TWF with your other hand, feet etc....
Hap
What I would do in this case:
Shields are weapons like any other. Their main advantage is that they provide AC if you are not attacking with them, but it cetainly is possible to use them as both primary and off-hand weapons.
If you use it as a primary weapon you will still need Improved Shield Bash to keep the AC bonus.
With that in mind I would not have a problem with you making unarmed off-hand attacks. Whether by using the feat or having a monk level - it realy makes no difference at all with respect to this combination.
I think this is absolutely in par with using the shield as off-hand and the unarmed strike as primary attack, or even substituting the spiked shield with a klar.
However, since you are using shield and armor most of your other monk benefits will be lost (e.g. Wis bonus to AC). I honestly think you would do much better with a 20th fighter or (I hate to bring it up) a 19th lvl fighter / 1st lvl barbarian with Animal Fury.
If I where you I would concentrate on making a robust fighter build without the monk and spice it up with the improved unarmed strike feat. I would suggest weapons like the kama or quarter staff for such a character.
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Why not? Technicly you could Duel Weild Shields. You just lose the AC from your mainhand one unless you have Improved Shieldbash. We have a player doing it in our game now. Duel Shields, Throw Anything, Shield of returning. Hellow Captain America! :(
This is wrong on so many levels...
firstly you cant throw a shield while getting any bonus to your AC.
Strapping a shield to your arm to gain its shield bonus to your AC, or unstrapping and dropping a shield so you can use your shield hand for another purpose...
You would have to keep the shield unstrapped ready to throw. some DMs might allow you to throw them based on the following line...
If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you can ready or drop a shield as a free action combined with a regular move.
but you would still never be able to make a full attack with this combo.
Secondly it doesnt matter where the shield is it is still and off-hand attack...
Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a light shield, using it as an off-hand weapon.
This means if you where duel wielding two shields you would suffer offhand penalties for both hands as if both where off-hand attacks and could only attack with 1 once even with a full attack action, twice if you had improved two weapon fighting, and thrice with greater two weapon fighting. This restricts you two light shields for effectiveness since heavy shields are one handed and suffer a greater penalty.
Third having two shields has no additional effect on your AC.
Bonus: Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies
So having two shields both provide a shield bonus to your AC so only the highest modifier is applied.
And lastly Captain America only has one shield ;)
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The primary reason for having the shield in the main hand was for the extra damage with the shield (large) and the fact I wouldn't need to take Double Slice as all monk unarmed attacks are at full str bonus.Hap
Like in my previous post It doesnt matter where the shield is it is still an off-hand attack...
Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a light shield, using it as an off-hand weapon.
Does the entry mean a Monk cannot use an unarmed attack as an offhand weapon or that it doesn't matter whether he does or not as they are all considered the same (thus the concept that he always deals full str damage with all unarmed attacks?). If that is the case (and I'm not sure that it is) then merely swap the unarmed attack to the main hand and the shied to the off-hand.
I personally would say while using his off-hand attack to make an unarmed attack he can do so but suffers all the regular penalties that would incur... half str to damage, only monk BAB (which doesnt effect your build much) but most importantly he would be considered without the TWF feat since hes not using FOB. Resulting in -4/-8. If he had the TWF feat purchased normally then it would revert back to -2/-2. The result is the only benefit you would get from 1 level of monk regarding attacks is the ability to attack while your hands are full with unarmed strike, increased damage with those attacks, and full strength with those attacks. This would apply during a FoB or while using unarmed strike in main hand and shield bashing with offhand.
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Hap,
To be honest, you'd be better off going for a pure Fighter build. The only thing you're getting from the monk is a minor damage boost. If you concentrate on unarmed, you can easily get enough bonuses to make the difference between d3 and d6 meaningless. We have a half-orc in our party who's done this. With Weapon Spec, Greater Weapon Spec and Weapon Training, he's laying out significant damage on six attacks a round.
And if you must have higher base damage, there's a feat in Bo9S (superior Unarmed Attack that boosts your unarmed damage as you level).
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Like in my previous post It doesnt matter where the shield is it is still an off-hand attack...
Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a light shield, using it as an off-hand weapon.Good catch - I'd missed that.
You might well be right Ftr 20 would be as good although I still like the idea you can hold something in your hand (a weapon). Could you interchange attacks with that weapon and unarmed?
Hap
yup nothing stopping your character kicking with his first attack then swinging a sword with his iterative attack or vise versa, which works nicely with a reach weapon threatening like a spiked chain used to