How would you calculate XP in this situation?


Rules Questions

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

As a general rule in 3.5 (which I haven't yet located in PFRPG but it should still apply in most cases) if one of a creature's abilities created more creatures which would normally have their own separate challenge ratings, they do not count as additional challenge (therefore do not provide XP) because the ability to create/attract/summon them is rolled in with the challenge rating of the master.

Now, for situations like summon monster this is obviously appropriate.

I'm a little less convinced about animate dead. Do those skeletons and zombies count toward the master's material wealth (25GP of onyx per hit die)? If so, there's an argument in favor of them being a part of his power. But even so: what if they're guarding a site far from the necromancer? It seems wrong to just give zero experience because they were technically a class feature.

This same argument applies to several zero-GP-cost character features: animal companions, Leadership cohorts, Command Undead minions. How should XP be rewarded?

To bring in the specific example at hand, my PCs just finished clearing through the lair of a 4th level cleric of Zon-Kuthon (elite NPC, CR3, appropriate gear/money including cost of created undead).

The entry guard was a Bloody Dire Ape Skeleton (4HD, controlled via Control Undead, CR3 on its own).

There were a total of 16 HD worth of undead, created from animate dead scrolls since he couldn't actually cast it yet himself. 8HD of these (four skeletons, two zombies) were milling about in one room, serving as both a minor party resource dump and an alarm system (combat noise notified the cleric of the party's presence).

The other 8HD (four zombies) were in the room with him, and by the time the party made it in he'd cast Desecration on the area.

All of this was technically one CR3 cleric. Three separate encounters, one CR3 without the cleric, one tactically nasty so it should be at +1 CR... but technically also at -1 because several of the cleric's class features, gear-wealth and feats were nullified by previous fights!

I'm going to just fudge the whole session's XP into one generous glob because there were some good story points and a harrowing fight with a river (gnome + scale mail + water = hilarity), but I'm really curious how others handle this sort of situation.


I don't know if this is written anywhere specifically, but here's how I draw the line in these kinds of situations.

If the fight in question is one single encounter (from start to finish; I'm not counting situations where a second encounter comes running in when they hear the sounds of battle), then I usually treat the XP as belonging entirely to the boss who summoned/created the minions - no XP for them.

If the minions are encountered separately, then they become a separate encounter with their own normal XP. After all, just about every undead is a minion of someone somwhere (or was, at one time), yet they all have XP values.

Finally, as an exception, some cases blur this distinction, and I often ask myselve whether some of these minions could work normally as their own separate non-minion encounter. For example, a bad guy with a cohort. Single cohorts tend to be fairly near their boss' HD. It would not be out of the ordinary to take that cohort (or an otherwise identical non-cohort) and stick him into his own encounter, all by himself. Likewise, I might do the same with a necromancer who summons one unusually strong undead rather than a roomful of skeletons, or maybe even for any summoner who summons one single monster/nature's ally whose HD and combat ability nearly approximate a fair encounter for the PCs all by itself.

In those cases, I will often award the XP for the minion as well as the boss. I am far more likely to do so when boss doesn't have to use any of his combat actions to summon the minion. Having to spend a whole round summoning your dire badger can be a real hassle, but having that dire badger already by your side when the combat starts is quite a time-saving advantage. (yes, I know, summoning it behind enemy lines can also be a huge advantage).

So, to answer your question, the entry guard was its own encounter worth XP, the 4 skellies/2 zombies in their own room were their own encounter worth XP, and I would very likely have given XP for the undead in the final room, based on my 'exception' example above (since 8 HD of undead was a worthy encounter in room 2, they are also worthy as an encounter in room 3, therefore worthy of XP).

Anyway, that's how I would do it.


tejón wrote:

As a general rule in 3.5 ...

... but I'm really curious how others handle this sort of situation.

I was reading through the start of chapter 9 the other day and am pretty sure summoned monsters do not count towards XP and awards.

Called monsters and created/animated undead do however. No mention is made that they should not and they are in theory permanent menaces the opponent can create well in advance of an encounter to bolster defenses/attack the party.

As for a druid animal companion is a class feature and should thus not add to the awards. Continuing with the druid he should not award extra xp for summoned creatures, but should for [b]created/animated/called[b] monsters. I would argue that he has spell casting as a class feature not calling/animating/creating. If however a class feature allowed to call/animate/create an ally I would not award extra xp for that ally.

Finaly there is the leadership cohort. He definitely should bring a separate xp award, since he is not part of a class feature.
A cohort can participate in a fight and boost an opponent in a significant maner and his presence far exceeds the abilities of a feat.

There are two considerations I find important here, which have nothing to du with the above.
1 - The leadership cohort is at the very best 2 levels below his master. His experience value is therefore not necesarily negligeble, but not enough that he represents a significant increase to the encounter CR.
2 - Cohorts need not be leadership cohorts. Any character (PC or NPC) can have one or more cohorts without the feat, albeit this will be rare. Hence arguing that a feat derived cohort does not represent an entity separate from the feat holder would not be correct.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Two great sets of comments so far. One piece of counterpoint:

The Grandfather wrote:
Hence arguing that a feat derived cohort does not represent an entity separate from the feat holder would not be correct.

Generally, I agree. But what about the power the character should have derived from that feat? Or in the case of my necromancer, two feats (because I didn't think it reasonable that she could have captured that bloody skeleton without Improved Channel).

These aren't class features, but they're character features and still have value as such. I mean, consider an equivalent conjuror with Spell Focus (conjuration) and Augment Summoning. Take away those two feats, replacing them with nothing, and the challenge is reduced significantly. Likewise for the cleric: she was effectively out two feats. (Well, maybe just one; she channeled for damage a couple of times.) If I'm giving XP for the minions, should her XP reward be lowered somewhat?


I will say that if the cleric is at full power with all his spells, in this case, I will award XP for his minions.
It's different if he should cast in spells in combat, and even before combat.
In this case, it did not have a chance of his spells being disrupted, he had time to rest and regain his spells, he can cast other spells when his minions are delaying the PCs.
So I would award full XP personnally. It's an adhoc (how did they spell that already ?) Xp.


tejón wrote:

Two great sets of comments so far. One piece of counterpoint:

The Grandfather wrote:
Hence arguing that a feat derived cohort does not represent an entity separate from the feat holder would not be correct.
Generally, I agree. But what about the power the character should have derived from that feat? Or in the case of my necromancer, two feats (because I didn't think it reasonable that she could have captured that bloody skeleton without Improved Channel).

Really I do not think it is of any consequence. You might also have the Skill Focus or Mounted Combat Feat, but in a temple battle the two might not ever be used. Feats provide options. Some are directly applied in combat, while others are not. Generally I do not think Leadership is a combat feat.

Your cohort might be your seneshal and only be used in the campaign when your knight is at his castle.
Likewise if the black baron brought all 65 of his followers to a battle against your 4th lvl party, I guess you would ecpect a reward for defeating his army.
As I see it leadership brings a new facette and options in the campaign and are separate from the feat holders actual abilities.
How a character uses his feats is his/her own bussiness but will generally be expected to compliment his/her style of play. Not all feats add anything to actual combat ability or power, and thus are not a quantifiable value to determine CR.

tejón wrote:
These aren't class features, but they're character features and still have value as such. I mean, consider an equivalent conjuror with Spell Focus (conjuration) and Augment Summoning. Take away those two feats, replacing them with nothing, and the challenge is reduced significantly. Likewise for the cleric: she was effectively out two feats. (Well, maybe just one; she channeled for damage a couple of times.) If I'm giving XP for the minions, should her XP reward be lowered somewhat?

No. The characters xp value should be a direct derivate of the characters CR. If the characer has no equipment, is hampered by permanent conditions, has been depleted of most spells or is at a severe tactical disadvantage I suggest you modify the encounters xp value by an ad-hoc value +/- 5% -20% (in the least to most extreme conditions). But in general the XP are the same even if the character has already used a couple of his main spells.

Also remember that EL are now calculated by adding all the separate xp values of the individual creature.

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