right. this goes right back to what I said earlier about you can pick and choose any scenario, but a 15th level wizard with a 22 INT and fireball memborized can lay waste to a lot of things.Oh right because every 15th level INT strong caster has time stop and gate. Thanks I forgot.
Time stop + gate x[rounds in time stop].
You didn't say anything about levels. Since you were talking about laying waste to towns and obliterating hordes, I naturally assumed that you were talking about a nearly-max level character.
Fine, a 15th level caster with super-maximized intelligence because of stacking items has effectively infinite 8th level spells. What does he do against the guy charging at him with a ring of spell turning and high magic resistance? He casts a series of prismatic walls in between him and the lunatic. With his arbitrarily-high DC, all the lunatic has to do is fail one or two SR checks (and he has to make 7 of them per wall) and he'll be toast.
Not true. The DC is only 19 and max damage is only 60 Assuming the monster does not have SR or energy resistance you get, and lucky and roll all 6's you still are not laying waste to anything if it is a level appropriate creature by doing 60 points of damage.
Why buy the +3 item?
because you still have the 2 +2 items in the other slots to give an effective bonus of +5, which gives a reason for the value to be higher than just multiples of the bonus multiplied by the +1 GP value.
I'm a little fuzzy on what you're saying here. I think that you're saying it's because it takes only one slot and thus you could free up two other slots? Or you could have a +3 item and 2 +2 items giving a +7 bonus total, or +5 in one stat and +2 in another?
Not true. The DC is only 19 and max damage is only 60 Assuming the monster does not have SR or energy resistance you get, and lucky and roll all 6's you still are not laying waste to anything if i is a level appropriate creature by doing 60 points of damage.
When did I say anything about a level appropriate creature when mentioning laying waste to towns?
Come on man not like there is towns full high level characters everwhere, and not like someone with a high int is going to go out and try to kill a town full of people his same level.
Commoners? What does picking on commoners prove?
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Wow, is THIS thread ever a total disaster.
Let me try to explain the actual rules very clearly, and all in one place. Perhaps it will help - probably not, because some people here seem to like arguing for the sake of arguing - but it's worth a shot.
You can only have one modifier of a given type affect a given attribute. In other words, you can have a +2 insight bonus and a +2 luck bonus and a +2 deflection bonus, and a +2 natural armor bonus to armor, and they'd all stack to give +8. However, if you have a +2 natural armor bonus and another item that gives +4 natural armor bonus, you can only use one or the other (most ppl would take the +4 I'm guessing) but you can NOT stack them. The only exception of which I am aware is Dodge bonuses, the rules explicitly say those stack.
You can only wear one item in each given item slot on your body, with the exception of rings, of which you may use two at any given time. This limits the number of items a single person may wear, and and limits the amount of bonuses a given character can attain. Obviously, the DM should have some control over this process as well, to assure that no character gets too powerful to cause balance issues with the game. To be honest, most of the discussions here haven't come up at all in my games, because nobody has had the chance to own that many bonus-giving items of the same type on the same character anyway. How many "Gloves of Dexterity +4" is a person likely to come across in adventuring anyway? It's not like they grow on trees for goodness sake.
As for the original poster's comment to the effect that once they get +5 on everything, they may as well just retire, I don't agree with that at all. First of all, I've never seen a PC get anywhere near that and I've played and run characters into the mid 20s in levels. Second, if that's the character's entire reason for adventuring, what a horrible way to roleplay, in my personal opinion. If the entire depth and complexity of your character is "kill stuff and collect loot", you're missing out on so much more. But hey, ymmv.
Hope that helps.
Okay I think I understand your point, but most games are built with an average power level in mind and stackable items could easily break that. A +7 to a stat doesn't sound that bad, and in some games it may not be, but for the baseline it is.
In the above example that +7 cost you 17,000 gp. Well within the starting gold for a 10th level char (and if you're a monk, much earlier). So now you got an item that gives you a continous +3 to +4 bonus to AC, Ref saves, ranged attacks, melee attacks (w/weapon finesse), acrobatics, disable device, escape artist, fly, ride, slight of hand, and stealth checks, their CMD, and with the agile manuvers feat, CMB. That's a hell of a bargain for a 17,000 gp, since you'd have to pay 36,000 gp otherwise, and probably wait until about 15th level.
If that works for your game, great! Presumably everyone in the party will have that kind of enhancement. That does however make the party significantly more powerful than the average party.
Commoners? What does picking on commoners prove?Not true. The DC is only 19 and max damage is only 60 Assuming the monster does not have SR or energy resistance you get, and lucky and roll all 6's you still are not laying waste to anything if i is a level appropriate creature by doing 60 points of damage.
When did I say anything about a level appropriate creature when mentioning laying waste to towns?
Come on man not like there is towns full high level characters everwhere, and not like someone with a high int is going to go out and try to kill a town full of people his same level.Who really cares what it proves?!
What it proves is irrelevant.
it proves that the guy is a jerk, which is why others are going to exploit his weaknesses and beat him down.
I just reread the thread. Why are you off on this tangent of the wizard being a jerk?
I don't understand how a character walking around with three +1 Str items is less restrictive to a player's RP style or character development. When you role play a character, you're supposed to think like that character does. Player-wise, I can see if you feel a character is being screwed by other PCs getting items and making your character obsolete, but that's still not a role playing issue. Your character wouldn't sit around going "why do Marvin the Wizard and Jenny the Cleric have more bonuses than me?". He says "Thank you, Wizard! You really saved my skin!" and goes on fighting, +6 worth of bonuses or no. If he'd had the bonuses, the combat simply might have turned out differently. The character would be the same.
right, if you are talking about a high magic campaign where the character can just walk right into the nearest walmart and pick up a +4 item lol.Okay I think I understand your point, but most games are built with an average power level in mind and stackable items could easily break that. A +7 to a stat doesn't sound that bad, and in some games it may not be, but for the baseline it is.
In the above example that +7 cost you 17,000 gp. Well within the starting gold for a 10th level char (and if you're a monk, much earlier). So now you got an item that gives you a continous +3 to +4 bonus to AC, Ref saves, ranged attacks, melee attacks (w/weapon finesse), acrobatics, disable device, escape artist, fly, ride, slight of hand, and stealth checks, their CMD, and with the agile manuvers feat, CMB. That's a hell of a bargain for a 17,000 gp, since you'd have to pay 36,000 gp otherwise, and probably wait until about 15th level.
If that works for your game, great! Presumably everyone in the party will have that kind of enhancement. That does however make the party significantly more powerful than the average party.
Well, then they could get it in the clearance isle at 50% off and we wouldn't be having this discussion :). Of course since it was made in China, they'll be back in a few levels for a new one :P. Sorta sounds like what the Red Wizards got going on in Faerun.
right, if you are talking about a high magic campaign where the character can just walk right into the nearest walmart and pick up a +4 item lol.
I think you've hit on the crux of the issue here. One thing that D20 does that previous D&D versions didn't worry as much about is to spend a LOT of time trying to put rules into place to stop rules abuse. In doing so, they've taken a lot of the control out of the DM's hands. One side result of this is "storefront thinking".
Most DM's in the 80s didn't really have magic shops chock full of all the items a PC might want. They might have been able to buy some potions or a +1 weapon here or there, but, in general, they could not sit there and calculate what items they needed at what level to gain what abilities. In 3.x, I've met several players who felt that because the rules support purchasing magic items for a certain amount, any character can find any item they want. This does lead to a certain amount of abuse. Rather than make it so the DM is responsible for not giving the party Gauntlets of Orge Power AND a Belt of Giant Strength, they just made them both Enhancement bonuses so it doesn't matter if the DM screws up.
On the one hand, it does make harder for one character to dominate simply by the player's wise purchases. On the other, there can be situations where it's a minor drawback. IMO, any reasonably judicious DM will simply make it so the Gauntlets and the Belt aren't both found in the same campaign (at least until the character's ready to get a better bonus).
I'll try my hand...you do understand there is underlying math balancing the game, right? If you want to pump up a specific stat, you can do that. Put all your level bumps into that stat, get a +6 Enhancement bonus item, and get a +5 Inherent bonus item. You've now pumped that stat up by +16 at 20th level, at a cost of 173,500 gp. You've statistically gained an 80% advantage over anyone not pumping that stat. The rest of the game, theoretically, is balanced to accommodate this. Trying to go around this system breaks the math of the game. If you want to do it in your game as a DM, that's fine, but you have to be ready to deal with the balance issues it will cause in your game.
you chose the scenario.
Incorrect.
you aren't going to blow through every obstacle no matter how you build your character. a one trick pony spell caster with one high attribute, might be able to lay waste to a town, obliterate undead hordes etc, but when the leader with the ring of spell turning, and high magic resistance comes charging at them, then what?
That was alllllll you, dude. You picked the entirety of the scenario, even the level of the wizard when you moved the goalposts:
Oh right because every 15th level INT strong caster has time stop and gate. Thanks I forgot.
By the way, when are you going to respond to my reply to your "Why can't I have +12 attribute at 1st level?" complaint? I noticed you got all quiet on that one. Maybe because you realize you're completely wrong and have no way to back out of it without saying so?
Well reasoned and very rational point.
to prevent rule abuse it appears we are heading back to basic or intro games, rather than advanced.
I like this version much better than AD&D, I must say. Largely because the rules and mechanics are more consistent and sensible. Now, you can take an alternate path with your games that allows items to stack. Simply treat that characters "wealth by level" as if the items are valued at their total stacked amount rather than individually and the game works fine. You would need to consider making the items a new bonus type, or else reconsider how Enhancement bonuses from other sources (spells, potions, etc.) stack with the items. Basically, if you want to use this approach in your games, you can, and PRPG/d20 provides the mechanical means to do so and still keep the game balanced.
Guy it was figurative speaking to empahsize that even a powerful spell caster has weaknesses. there was no scenario. get it? got it? good.
More moving goal posts. First it was your scenario, when you thought it actually proved a point. Then it was my scenario, when you thought making it my scenario would prove a point. Now that I've called you on that, too, now suddenly it wasn't a scenario at all! Next you'll just pretend I'm making it all up.
By the way, I think both of my responses showed that a wizard given infinite stack-ability as you propose is more than able to take care of himself in pretty much any circumstance. Again, your 15th level wizard has 30+ spells per day of every spell level and has DCs of 130+.
Oh yeah great writer of fictiononal scenarios you proved it well.
You wrote them. Fourth moved goalpost!
I understand that, but i have never experienced balance problems as a GM except with the old school Barbarian class, when stacking attributes.
But then again, I don't go giving 5 +4 magical items to a 3rd level character or anything. maybe because my players generally thought they had a real treasure when they actually had a +1 sword at 5th level. balance wasn't really a problem.
It sounds like you've played AD&D, but not necessarily D&D 3.0 or higher (assumption on my part). The underlying mechanics of the game are so different, that direct comparisons can be difficult. Average wealth for a 5th level character in PRPG is 10,500. So, that character (sticking with a warrior example) should at most have a +2 weapon (8,000), +1 armor (1,000), and +1 shield (1,000). Alternately, he could go with a +1 weapon (2,000) and add in a belt of giant strength +2 (4,000), a cloak of resistance (1,000) and a brooch of shielding (1,500). The DM can balance this via an actual "magic mart" or by monitoring what is handed out as treasure. If you want the player to get a +1 Str belt and +1 Str gauntlets (that stack with the belt) just value the two at 4,000 gp and you're done.
Point is, once you understand the underlying mechanics, you can take it apart and put it back together any way you want. In my upcoming Legacy of Fire game, I plan on awarding "hero points" that the players will use to customize characters with regard to ability, skill, and combat rolls, spells, etc. Very few magic items will be in the game and when they do appear they will be important and unique. I do all this simply by assigning point values to their "hero point" purchases based on the magic item creation rules, then align the points with the wealth per level. The system is yours, do with it as best suits your game.
ok if you want to go in that direction of thinking of it in a roleplay sense, think of what roleplay is....
it is putting yourself into this character, this persona, and being them for the story. You take them the direction you want that character's story to go and you write that character's story much like you do in real by living your own sort of story.
I think you're a little off on the metaphor. While we might consider buying a good computer in hopes that it will help us get ahead in life, in general we trust to ourselves and our abilities. The characters you're talking about are the same. They want to become great warriors, wizards, etc. To do that, they train, they learn spells, etc. They might say, "gee, if I had a magic sword, I could be an even better warrior", but not "gee, if I get these four items, I can move down this path and eventually be the strongest warrior of all!" It's beyond their comprehension, in general. Even knowing all those magic items exist is iffy, but the character themselves would have no way to plan out their lives by them. It's the Player that's trying to do that, to make his character what he wants it to be; therefore, it's not a Role Playing restriction, it's a metagaming restriction.
this whole type of system is portrayed in gaining items in a roleplay game.
I think the system of getting better and advancing down their chosen life path is the same for the characters as it is for us IRL. They advance down their chosen profession and become better through learning. A magic item is like winning the lotto. It might get you to your goal faster, but it's certainly nothing to bank on.
I could see it i a system where every 500 exp points you can buy attributes but that really isn't the case.
I do see your point here in a way. In D&D specifically, ability increases don't come like they do IRL. You start off close to the best you'll ever be naturally, getting a few increases (say 5 over 20 levels). In real life, if your Strength is too low and your goal is to be an athlete, you work out until your Strength changes. It might go from a 9 to a 13 in a year, if you work at it. If your goal is to be a Salesman, you buy some nice clothes, study how you interact with people, maybe take some classes, and boom! You gain 2 points of charisma real quick.
Maybe D&D's starting stats are too high, so there's nothing to shoot for?
Very observant. I started into players options and 3.0 just before heading to college and not played since.
Just got back into it after I graduated with 3.5, and started learning it just before PF came out.
As far as my campaigns are concerned, 10th levels would never have stuff like that unless they had really earned it the hard way. LOL since magic items were worth probably twice what you listed.great pointers though.
d20 is very modular, actually, and you can tweak various aspects of the rules to fit your play style. I would recommend a good read on the Magic Item Creation rules, as that will help ground you on the assumed "value" of various bonus types. It's also important to know that d20 games generally assume characters are indeed around the average wealth per level in equipment (or equal system, as with my "hero points" concept) in order to balance against challenges appropriate to their level. A DM that knows his players and their characters, however, can balance things in other ways when necessary.
That, or the reliance on magic to become better is annoying. For a long time I've wanted to run (or play in! if I could be so lucky) a campaign that scrapped magical enhancement and inherrant bonuses to ability scores and instead have bonuses come alot faster (maybe once every even level or such, not sure exactly) but I never put the effort into working out the details.
I've just start a new PF campaign at level 1, at that's kind of what I'm shooting for. I'm not modifying the stat bonuses, mind, and not eliminating item bonuses, but they're going to be much more rare than in some games I've been in. I really do think magic items are better rare. It makes everything more of a challenge, and the players focus on their characters, not their stuff.
Still, one has got to include enough items to keep some players focused. I've never understood that sort of mindset; to me characters make the game not because they're "the best" possible build, but because it's fun to pretend to be someone else and deal with their fictional triumphs and tragedies rather than your own for a short time. I know, however, that not all players think that way, and if my players aren't happy with the game, they'll take off, no matter how cool I think my setting is.
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My original gripe comes from the fact that you apparently, so I am told, you can't do something like wear a +2 Con amulet and a.... I don't know a +2 con pair of boots and expect a cumulative bonus of +4 total from the two items.
It's a simple matter of game balance, bro. The reason the single item maxes at a certain level, and beyond that you have to be epic, is that otherwise you could conceivably have a level 6 or 7 character with 40 Dex or something equally absurd. The CRs and such in the game aren't designed to handle. If you can't see the problem there, the I don't know how else to explain it to ya. There's a range beyond which you become a broken and unfair character. These limits are here to protect against that. It's like having a 10th level fighter with 70AC. That's not fun for anybody. I had a friend who had worked out a Dwarven Defender build to have mid-70's AC by 15th level, until we showed him an errata on a feat he was using that shot his whole snarky plan to hell (thank goodness).
If you're into that sort of thing, more power to you, but I'm not in that camp.
I understand that, but that is what the GM is for not rules.
Ah, then PRPG is for you. I give you, straight from page 9, the Most Important Rule. Too many people forget this...
The Most Important Rule
The rules in this book are here to help you breathe life into your characters and the world they explore. While they are designed to make your game easy and exciting, you might find that some of them do not suit the style of play that your gaming group enjoys. Remember that these rules are yours. You can change them to fit your needs. Most Game Masters have a number of "house rules" that they use in their games. The Game Master and players should always discuss any rules changes to make sure that everyone understands how the game will be played. Although the Game Master is the final arbiter of the rules, the Pathfinder RPG is a shared experience, and all of the players should contribute their thoughts when the rules are in doubt.
Let no rule constrain fun for the group!
Let no rule constrain fun for the group!
This thread must have hurt my eyes...
The first time I read this, I thought you said "Let no rule contain fun for the group!"
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Characters are balanced on the assumption that they have X amount of gold invested in items at any given level. Stat-boost item prices are calculated by figuring (bonus)^2 * 1,000. Thus, a +2 stat item costs 4,000 gp. A +4 stat item costs 16,000 gp. A +6 stat item costs 36,000 gp.
Additionally, you can make an item slotless, essentially allowing you to wear seven pairs of slotless gloves and gain the bonus from each of them, but slotless items cost twice as much as standard items.
Given this, you could wear one slotted +2 item plus two more slotless +2 items for 4000 + 8000 + 8000 = 20,000 gp, significantly less than a single +6 item. If you were to wear those items in different slots on your body, you'd save an extra 8,000 gp.
The game is balanced on the assumption that you will have spent either 16,000 or 24,000 more gold than you are proposing with your methods.
Let's try something. A wizard 20 has 880,000 gold to spend. If he could spend every bit of that on stackable, slotless +2 Intelligence items, he would have 880,000 - 4,000*15 (number of item slots on the body) = 820,000/8,000 = 102.5 + the 15 slotted items = 117 items of +2 Intelligence. This puts him at +234 Intelligence, or a +117 DC to all of his saving throws. If he crafted these items himself, he'd have twice as much. On top of this, he'd have ridiculous numbers of spells, which lets him prepare for very nearly any situation, and he would think up any possible contingency, since he'd have an IQ somewhere around 2,500.
Yeah, that's right. Two-thousand five-hundred. Now, consider the equivalent of that as Strength. With a two-handed weapon, someone with a Strength of 250 deals +125 damage with a light or one-handed weapon, +187 damage with a two-handed weapon. This character can kill a great wyrm gold dragon in one round -- guaranteed, since he will only miss on a 1. Additionally, for this person, a light load will be 4,644,337,115,725.82 tons. So never mind hitting that great wyrm red dragon with a sword; just pick it up and smash it into the nearest piece of planet that you can find.
Ridiculous much?
But I feel like I'm repeating an argument here.
Let's try something. A wizard 20 has 880,000 gold to spend. If he could spend every bit of that on stackable, slotless +2 Intelligence items, he would have 880,000 - 4,000*15 (number of item slots on the body) = 820,000/8,000 = 102.5 + the 15 slotted items = 117 items of +2 Intelligence. This puts him at +234 Intelligence, or a +117 DC to all of his saving throws. If he crafted these items himself, he'd have twice as much. On top of this, he'd have ridiculous numbers of spells, which lets him prepare for very nearly any situation, and he would think up any possible contingency, since he'd have an IQ somewhere around 2,500.Yeah, that's right. Two-thousand five-hundred. Now, consider the equivalent of that as Strength. With a two-handed weapon, someone with a Strength of 250 deals +125 damage with a light or one-handed weapon, +187 damage with a two-handed weapon. This character can kill a great wyrm gold dragon in one round -- guaranteed, since he will only miss on a 1. Additionally, for this person, a light load will be 4,644,337,115,725.82 tons. So never mind hitting that great wyrm red dragon with a sword; just pick it up and...
Ok, that has got to be the best explanation of why stacking isn't in the rules I've seen. :)
Ok, that has got to be the best explanation of why stacking isn't in the rules I've seen. :)
Also, I finally get Dragonball!
Can a character with a 250 strength even wield a sword? I feel like his grip would shatter it. I also wouldnt want to be anywhere near him as chances are his steps would shatter the earth as he walked. Would need to campaign on the plane of unbreakable things or something.
I understand that, but that is what the GM is for not rules.
And that is still the case. The whole point of a rule system is to help the dm and players tell a story, and act out their characters behavior. Not every dm is going to perfectly balance equipment without guidelines. It is in fact one of the more difficult dming tasks, maintaining balance. The truth is, there is still Rule 0, if you dont like a rule in a system, and feel it should be changed, change it. If you think you and your group can handle stackable items and provide for a fun and interesting bit of gaming, talk to your group/dm about it and go ahead and do it. Everything depends on the group, no rule is sacred (except not re-rolling rerolls, that will bring a poor dice rolling blight upon you the like that has never been seen by the dice gods).
I'm gonna explain why most magical itens don't work together, so it gets simple to you, ok? Ok.
Simply put, the magic supercedes each other cause they are of the same kind, when a Spell like Bear's endurance is in effect for example it does not stack because it is the same kind of energy, adding it on top of that energy does nothing for you. And Itens that give Ability Score bonuses are itens imbued with said spells.
Needless to say, it would be riduculous and "dragonballlike" as explained earlier if said bonuses did stack. Cause it is no biggie for a high level Character have +200 and in an atribute so, everybody would be Goku and Vegeta, which is not cool.(although I do think DB is Awesome ;)
And yet, if said itens would stack, what would be your explanation for Spells that do the same thing not work? So it would be reasonable to say that someone could get a bunch of priests or wizards(or both) to cast cat's grace/owl wisdom and that kind of spell on him basically at the same time, granting him an impossible amount of Ability Score Bonuses, you get it? I'm not saying the rules are sacred, but in this case they make LOTS of sense.
Its like fuel, no matter how much you put in your car, it will not go faster, if will only move further, now THAT is a rule for spells I would not argue (much).