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Is this just nuts? I can go back to my figher build and just wait for one of the rogue-fighters to die and be replaced by something else...
I don't think it's nuts. Bards are a very versatile class and the benefit of their slower spellcasting progression is that you won't be crippled by a low Charisma score. If you're not planning on taking any spells that require saving throws, you're solid until the 5th level of spells. I do agree with my learned colleague when he suggests having a lower wisdom to pay for more Con. Melee characters need their hit points.
I was actually thinking of a similar build and can't decide between sorcerer/fighter or bard. The problem is that cross-classing is no longer about cherry-picking the best of each class. You actually lose out on some cool benefits.
It's not nuts at all. Frankly, I find the difference between a stat of 14 and a stat of 16 (say) is vastly overrated for spellcasters. And a lot of the bard's abilities aren't dependent on Cha anyways.
I've never run a caster. I am much more interested in running melee characters, and I really like dwarves.
However our next party is likely to consist of two rouge-fighters and a cleric... So I am brain storming.
Str 14
Dex 14
Con 14 (12+2)
Int 10
Wis 10 (8+2)
Cha 14 (16-2)Skills:
Appraise
Knowledge History
Perception
Perform (oratory)
Spell Craft
StealthFeat:
Arcane StrikeSpells:
0
Detect Magic
Mending
Message
Prestidigitation1
Cure Light Wounds
Expeditious Retreat (AKA run down that person who's ticking him off)Future Feats:
3 - Dodge
5 - Craft Magic Arms and Armour
7 - Combat Casting
9 - Craft Wonderous Item
11 - Power Attack
13 - Craft Ring
15 - ?
17 - ?
19 - ?The general idea is for this guy to be running around in a chainshirt, weilding a warhammer, and using a small shield (which would let him tuck his hammer away to use his hand to cast if I understand this properly). He would rant at everyone to fight their best, and clobber people at the same time.
He'd also make magical gear for the party as part of his worship of his deity, and practicing the lore of his people. (Since we'd be light on casting, odds are magic items will end out picking up the slack.)
Is this just nuts? I can go back to my figher build and just wait for one of the rogue-fighters to die and be replaced by something else...
If you like melee consider the bard dragon disciple. Bonus stats to strength, natural armor, and some sorcerer bloodline goodies. Consider putting power attack and arcane strike in your build early. Bards are the best buffers in the game so melee is an option. At level 1 you can have a magic weapon. Longspear is a bard weapon and gives 1.5X bonus damage from str and +3 per -1 on power attack. You can use mirror image to give yourself a crazy miss chance, stand behind the party front-line and destroy enemies, and eventually when you get form of the dragon all your natural weapons are magic because of arcane strike. Bonus points.. you can use wands as a secondary healer/buffer.
Consider
1. Arcane Strike
3. Power attack
then continue your build as normal Wtih mirror image/displacement dodge is kind of wasted unless you need it as a pre-req.
I've never run a caster. I am much more interested in running melee characters, and I really like dwarves.
However our next party is likely to consist of two rouge-fighters and a cleric... So I am brain storming.
Str 14
Dex 14
Con 14 (12+2)
Int 10
Wis 10 (8+2)
Cha 14 (16-2)Skills:
Appraise
Knowledge History
Perception
Perform (oratory)
Spell Craft
StealthFeat:
Arcane StrikeSpells:
0
Detect Magic
Mending
Message
Prestidigitation1
Cure Light Wounds
Expeditious Retreat (AKA run down that person who's ticking him off)Future Feats:
3 - Dodge
5 - Craft Magic Arms and Armour
7 - Combat Casting
9 - Craft Wonderous Item
11 - Power Attack
13 - Craft Ring
15 - ?
17 - ?
19 - ?The general idea is for this guy to be running around in a chainshirt, weilding a warhammer, and using a small shield (which would let him tuck his hammer away to use his hand to cast if I understand this properly). He would rant at everyone to fight their best, and clobber people at the same time.
He'd also make magical gear for the party as part of his worship of his deity, and practicing the lore of his people. (Since we'd be light on casting, odds are magic items will end out picking up the slack.)
Is this just nuts? I can go back to my figher build and just wait for one of the rogue-fighters to die and be replaced by something else...
You can also have fun with the annoyance route with a bard. Buff everyone up and trip-disarm people from 15 ft with a whip.
If you are going to go melee. I would suggest the following feats instead:
Arcane Strike (1st), Power Attack (5th), Toughness, Shield Focus, Dodge, Combat Casting (3rd)
And using either a long sword, or a long spear: Long spear gives reach and you can melee from behind the fighter. It requires giving up your shield but you aren't fully front line material and staying a step back really helps your odds as does the extra damage you get from two handing the weapon.
Spells to take include: Mirror Image, Grease, Good Hope, and Haste.
Why are people interested in Arcane Strike? It really looks weak to me (+1 damage from levels 1-5? Yippee...).
Why are people interested in Arcane Strike? It really looks weak to me (+1 damage from levels 1-5? Yippee...).
Power Attack only gives +2 damage from level 1-5 for a 1-handed weapon, and gives the -1 to hit to go along with it. It also doesn't overcome DR/magic.
Why are people interested in Arcane Strike? It really looks weak to me (+1 damage from levels 1-5? Yippee...).
Because it is +1~+5 damage that stacks with everything else and gets multiplied on a critical, in addition to taking any mundane weapon and making it count as magical.
As a feat it is better than weapon specialization, on par with power attack (for the most part due to the penalties to hit) and still goes with both of them.
Note that if you're going to play a bard that fights in melee, you have to be very careful about your arms and armor. If you use a one-handed weapon and a shield, you cannot cast spells with somatic components unless either the weapon is sheathed or the shield is worn. This is another point in favor of the longspear (or other two-handed weapon).
Or use a Buckler, or light shield: The buckler won't affect your spells and with the light shield you could hold your weapon while casting then trade back to you main hand afterward.
Wow... how odd/cool is this... a friend of mine is considering joining a second game I'm trying to put together (and yes PFRPG) and he was thinking about a dwarf bard. I am going to have to remember a lot of these suggestions and point out their use/effectiveness.
(Oh, if anyone is interested*, I'm finally going to start that homebrew AP I made mention about some time ago, Linnorm Kings, Irrisen, Mammoth Lords... Vikings vs Witches... and I'm calling this Adventure Path "Witches Twilight").
*And by "interested" I meant wondering what the game was. I have 7 potential players... more than enough I feel... even if a few don't show regularly.
I love these messageboards.
Dean; the Minstrel_Wyrm
I've never run a caster. I am much more interested in running melee characters, and I really like dwarves...
Not nuts at all, but a really fun character to roleplay! Give him a good background and he'll be a dwarf to remember. Why did he become a bard? How does he feel about that? and what does his clan/familly think about it?
GRU
However our next party is likely to consist of two rouge-fighters and a cleric... So I am brain storming.
As bard, you should first and foremost take good care that the rouge-fighters are always perfectly groomed, especially the rouge is important. Or do they fight their enemies with rouge brushes ? :-))
SCNROther than that, the build for this bard looks quite cool, and it could be quite a fun character to play - combining the dwarf with the bard image is not easy, but the image you have in mind could work quite well, I think.
Stefan
Extra Bardic music never hurts. 6 more rounds gives you one use of soothing performance and half of another use.
About your damage output:
It is quite possible to get good damage out of the bard without having an uber high strength score. Remember that your Inspire Courage ability works on you too, and when it is active pretty much gives you full BAB with a bonus on damage too (level 1 gives a +1 with BAB 0, level 5 gives a +2 with a BAB of 3, you just don't get the extra attack as soon).
Unlike the fighter you still have other things that you can do yourself to improve your damage. At level one using a masterwork long spear, 14 strength, arcane strike and inspire courage you'll be +4 to hit, and deal 1d8+5 damage, with something that counts as a magical weapon. In addition to the fact you can still heal yourself. At level five your damage will increase 2 points at least -- 1 from arcane strike, 1 from inspire courage -- possibly more if you buy a magical +1 long spear here, and your attack roll is still looking good too: +8 to hit (3 BAB 2 Str 2 Inspire courage 1 magical weapon). At level seven you get to improve yourself even more with just one round of buffing by casting good hope which stacks with bardic music and proves another +2 to hit and damage -- bardic music is a move action for you now so you can cast the spell and start the music in the same round.
You also have some defensive tricks that are really nice too -- Invisibility, Mirror Image, and several others give you a better chance at survival than better armor would in most cases.
Finally you are going to be popular with any other melee people in your group too. You're music and buffing magic generally affects all your allies, it stacks nicely, you can get it out quickly and your still right there helping to boot. If you spend your first two rounds in each combat casting Haste, Good Hope, starting Inspire Courage, and moving into an advantageous position you've already given everyone in your group +6 to hit, +5 on damage, an extra attack, and more movement speed. That's a lot to get out of two rounds and can really end the fight before it starts. Something that will be noticed.
You have several nice utility spells to go with all this, healing magic that helps in a pinch and more skill points, tricks, and abilities than you'll usually know what to do with.
You might ask your DM about the Song of the Heart feat from the Eberron Campaign Setting. Even though it's in the CS, it's absolutely setting-neutral, and it's a great feat for any bard. It increases the bonuses on Inspire Courage and Inspire Competence by 1, and increases the DC on fascinate and suggestion by 1.
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Wow... how odd/cool is this... a friend of mine is considering joining a second game I'm trying to put together (and yes PFRPG) and he was thinking about a dwarf bard. I am going to have to remember a lot of these suggestions and point out their use/effectiveness.
(Oh, if anyone is interested*, I'm finally going to start that homebrew AP I made mention about some time ago, Linnorm Kings, Irrisen, Mammoth Lords... Vikings vs Witches... and I'm calling this Adventure Path "Witches Twilight").
*And by "interested" I meant wondering what the game was. I have 7 potential players... more than enough I feel... even if a few don't show regularly.
I love these messageboards.
Dean; the Minstrel_Wyrm
I hope to see it in the Story Hour, I was really interested in that campaign idea.
Drop strength. You really don't need strength for either its encumbrance or its damage-dealing benefits as a bard, and I honestly wouldn't take Power Attack either. Dropping Strength to 12 should net you enough to raise Con to 14. Alternately, drop Strength to 13 (to maintain Power Attack eligibility) and drop Wisdom to 7; you've got high Will saves and bonuses to saves vs spells anyway.
You reaaaaaaaally don't want to drop your primary casting stat especially when it's the same as your primary skill-role stat.
I think it is survivable. Unless you are planning to do a lot of SoS spells (Save or suck) then you really don't need a huge amount of charisma. Yeah it helps with the bonus spells, an extra round of bardic music, or an extra +1 on some skills but generally those things can be had in other ways, or as you said you'll just pick it up later. An extra 20 hp and +1 on fortitude saves though is rather nice, especially when it puts your Fort save up towards the "good" category for most your adventuring career.
Charisma 15 to start 16 to end is just fine for a bard.
However you could squeeze a point out of wisdom. You got your whole "I'm a dwarf and I'm getting more Wisdom anyways, and I got bonuses to any will save I'll make cause I'm a dwarf" thing going on on top of a good will save to begin with.
Charisma 15 to start 16 to end is just fine for a bard.
That's not what he'd have, though. He's a dwarf, remember. With spending points to get it to 15, he'd only have a 13 charisma.
Darn it knew I was missing something, however:
Cha 13... at fourth level is cha 14, at eight is cha 15 at twelfth is cha 16.
3rd level spells at 7th level, 4th at 10th, 5th at 13th and 6th at 15th so he'll have the Cha by the time he needs it, and he still has 2 points left over to spend on getting his wisdom back, or simply increasing his Cha to 18 by level 20, before magical items/books/wishes/whatever.
I would say it's do able. Might be shy a few rounds of bardic music at the start but he should be fine long term.
*** Edit: However, I STILL agree with you that wisdom is probably where I would drop the points from first.
Selling down wisdom only nets an extra two points, and you need three to go from con 12 (2pts) to con 14 (5pts)
Like I said, either drop strength to 12, or drop strength to 13 and wisdom to 7. Charisma 13 is NOT really viable for a bard. 14 isn't really, either, IMO, but 13 is just way too weak.
I'd talk with your fellow players. If they're expecting you to fill the arcanist niche, they're going to be sorely disappointed. Even your spell selections do not fill the niche, with expeditious retreat and cure light wounds, which the cleric already does better than you. I'm also going to assume that one of those rogue-fighters is going to take diplomacy, bluff, or intimidate, because you're not taking the skills that let you be the party face. And with this much melee, the cleric's going to be casting mostly heals and buffs anyway, so crowd control is out the window as well.
So, no, I don't think this is feasible with your current party. You don't bring much to the table that other PCs don't already have.
If you haven't played casters much, play a caster! Step outside your comfort zone. The worst thing you can do is to neither play something new nor play what you're accustomed to.
I have to disagree on the idea that he's not bringing much to the table. He's bringing a bard. That means that every time he sings inspire courage it generates three times the benefit. With this party, pumping IC is not a bad idea, especially if he can get his hands on Dragonfire Inspiration.
He's bringing a bard without illusions, enchantments, diplomacy or bluff. He's a singing rogue-fighter, basically. They've already got two of those.
Honestly... I think you should be going the other way on Constitution. You're not likely to drop in one round running on a d8 plus favored class bonus, and unlike most melee you can always take a 5-foot step and Cure Appropriate Wounds.
Str 14
Dex 14
Con 8 (10)
Int 13
Wis 7 (9)
Cha 17 (15)
At level 1 you take a buckler (to keep the hand available for casting), a whip, a spiked gauntlet (wear it on the whip hand), and Combat Expertise. I'll let you figure the rest out yourself. :)
I had been considering a combat manuever, but they seem to become less feasible as levels increase, and access to deflection bonuses increases.
Remember that anything which would add to an attack roll, adds to a combat maneuver as well. Bard song, for instance. Enhancement bonus on weapons which can be used for the maneuver, too. You can stack way more attack bonuses than most opponents can stack touch AC.
That's exactly what I was getting at with the whip and Combat Expertise, by the way. Trippybard. :)
I hope to see it in the Story Hour, I was really interested in that campaign idea.Wow... how odd/cool is this... a friend of mine is considering joining a second game I'm trying to put together (and yes PFRPG) and he was thinking about a dwarf bard. I am going to have to remember a lot of these suggestions and point out their use/effectiveness.
(Oh, if anyone is interested*, I'm finally going to start that homebrew AP I made mention about some time ago, Linnorm Kings, Irrisen, Mammoth Lords... Vikings vs Witches... and I'm calling this Adventure Path "Witches Twilight").
*And by "interested" I meant wondering what the game was. I have 7 potential players... more than enough I feel... even if a few don't show regularly.
I love these messageboards.
Dean; the Minstrel_Wyrm
Hey there DM_aka_Dudemeister... I'd be happy to post a sort of campaign journal from this homebrew AP (although of course utilizing the world of Golarion) and maybe I could nudge some of my players into postings journal-like entries from their characters perspectives too. I couldn't find one called "Story Hour" on the Campaign Journal messageboards (although I didn't look through the entire number of threads, admittedly.) But I will likely post a thread for "Witches Twilight" in the Campaign Journal thread. Hopefully you see my new post here, otherwise I'll see if I can post a similar "note" in my original thread about "Iggwilv, the White Witch, and Baba Yaga."
Peace
The Minstrel Wyrm