Trample?

[vikhik]

How does one resolve a level 2 elf fighter with the Trample feat? He has a str of 14 and a light warhorse.

Personally the Overrun combat maneuver is a little convoluted. Can he overrun multiple targets?

Do I
A. Use his characters CMB and the horse gets a free hoof attack against the target?
B. Use the horses CMB and the horse gets a free hoof attack against the target?
C. Some weird combination of the above?

If Maethoron the Cavalier ordered his horse to overrun a group of kobolds (or one?) as part of a charge.. could he also use his lance? Could he attempt to overrun at the same time? What can/can't he do?

[The Grandfather]

vikhik wrote:

How does one resolve a level 2 elf fighter with the Trample feat? He has a str of 14 and a light warhorse.

Personally the Overrun combat maneuver is a little convoluted. Can he overrun multiple targets?

Do I
A. Use his characters CMB and the horse gets a free hoof attack against the target?
B. Use the horses CMB and the horse gets a free hoof attack against the target?
C. Some weird combination of the above?

If Maethoron the Cavalier ordered his horse to overrun a group of kobolds (or one?) as part of a charge.. could he also use his lance? Could he attempt to overrun at the same time? What can/can't he do?

It is a bit counterintuitive, but as far as I can see "you" make the overrun attempt. So basically you use the +2 BAB, the +0 size and the +2 Str of your character = +4 to overrun.

If your horse tried to oberrun on its own it would get (not sure about stats) +3 BAB, +1 size and +4 Str = +8 to overrun. Which means that in the short term it would be harder for the horse to overrun , but it would start to improve after 6th lvl.
If the horse had to make the overruns, the feat would fast become useless at hugher levels.
If this interpretation is right you (and not the horse) provoke an AoO, but the improved and greater overrun feats would help you.

[Igor Braslavski]

In 3.5 description of overrun there was special note about trample (Mounted Overrun). It also states that during overrun you may continue your movement through opponents squares until blocked first time. I think it works the same way here. In case of trample this seems at least partially counterintuitive. For example trained horseman could easily force his way through a group of 5-6 literally "overrunning" them. Would it be unbalanced to allow multiple mounted overruns in the same round?

As for combat maneuver check, i would rule that you make the ckeck using special CMB: your BAB + mount's Str and size mods + other mods.

d20srd wrote:

Step 2
Opponent Avoids? The defender has the option to simply avoid you. If he avoids you, he doesn't suffer any ill effect and you may keep moving (You can always move through a square occupied by someone who lets you by.) The overrun attempt doesn’t count against your actions this round (except for any movement required to enter the opponent’s square). If your opponent doesn't avoid you, move to Step 3.

d20srd wrote:

Mounted Overrun (Trample)
If you attempt an overrun while mounted, your mount makes the Strength check to determine the success or failure of the overrun attack (and applies its size modifier, rather than yours). If you have the Trample feat and attempt an overrun while mounted, your target may not choose to avoid you, and if you knock your opponent prone with the overrun, your mount may make one hoof attack against your opponent.

d20srd - overrun

[grasshopper_ea]

vikhik wrote:

How does one resolve a level 2 elf fighter with the Trample feat? He has a str of 14 and a light warhorse.

Personally the Overrun combat maneuver is a little convoluted. Can he overrun multiple targets?

Do I
A. Use his characters CMB and the horse gets a free hoof attack against the target?
B. Use the horses CMB and the horse gets a free hoof attack against the target?
C. Some weird combination of the above?

If Maethoron the Cavalier ordered his horse to overrun a group of kobolds (or one?) as part of a charge.. could he also use his lance? Could he attempt to overrun at the same time? What can/can't he do?

This is a good question. I'm playing a paladin who took the mount for divine bond in legacy of fire and I'm going to be taking trample in a couple levels. Does the mount make the overrun, or does the rider. It seems to me that the mount would. If so can the mount overrun as part of a charge, and rider make a lance attack against a further target? Can the mount overrun more than one character. Overrun is a standard action which states that no, it couldn't, however I can't see a horse NOT being able to overrun more than one medium/smaller creatures as it moves.

[Purple Dragon Knight]

It's better to have the mount do the overrun, and is in keeping with previous rules... this way you can charge, rider gets to do a lance attack when it comes to within 10', then horse gets to do the overrun/trample as it gets to within 5'.

(i.e. the rider focuses on damage and the mount gets to do a bit of battlefield control)

This also allow you to select useful feats for your mount: power attack, improved overrun, greater overrun... while the rider can focus on his lance attacks.

Remember mounted combat is already almost useless as is (applies only 10% of the time), so requiring the rider to take even MORE feats like improved overrun to make the trample useful would be depressing...

[grasshopper_ea]

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

It's better to have the mount do the overrun, and is in keeping with previous rules... this way you can charge, rider gets to do a lance attack when it comes to within 10', then horse gets to do the overrun/trample as it gets to within 5'.

(i.e. the rider focuses on damage and the mount gets to do a bit of battlefield control)

This also allow you to select useful feats for your mount: power attack, improved overrun, greater overrun... while the rider can focus on his lance attacks.

Remember mounted combat is already almost useless as is (applies only 10% of the time), so requiring the rider to take even MORE feats like improved overrun to make the trample useful would be depressing...

I wouldn't say useless. at Level 5 with 19 str my paladin on spirited charge hits for 3d8 + 12 (usually another +2*3 for inspire courage) without smite evil. That's with just a masterwork lance. That's a one hit kill for lots of enemies, others are crippled..then it's the horse's turn. 21 STR on divine mount at level 5 isn't shabby.

Increased mobility is nice too, 100 ft charges in platemail and all.

[spalding]

Trample says you attempt and your target. The mount just gets an attack against the opponent if you knock them down (they can't avoid the overrun due to the trample feat).

Nothing else in the pathfinder book covers overrunning opponents while mounted.

[grasshopper_ea]

Abraham spalding wrote:

Trample says you attempt and your target. The mount just gets an attack against the opponent if you knock them down (they can't avoid the overrun due to the trample feat).

Nothing else in the pathfinder book covers overrunning opponents while mounted.

That's kinda what I was thinking when I read that. Guess I know my next feat line :) I suppose that is better in the long run as most mounted chars have full BAB unlike some horses I know. It just seems counter intuitive that the person on the horse is making the attack when the horse is running someone over. There really needs to be an improved trample feat to let you run over more than one person. I just cant see 1 goblin stopping a warhorse from running over 10 of his buddies.

[Abraham spalding]

I could see it as the person on the horses back is sort of assisting with knocking the opponent down by swinging at his head or something...

I don't know the whole mounted combat thing is a bit wonky to me (not as in odd to do, but as in mechanically wonky).

[grasshopper_ea]

Abraham spalding wrote:

I could see it as the person on the horses back is sort of assisting with knocking the opponent down by swinging at his head or something...

I don't know the whole mounted combat thing is a bit wonky to me (not as in odd to do, but as in mechanically wonky).

Too confusing.. I'll just charge :)

[Daniel Moyer]

grasshopper_ea wrote:

Too confusing.. I'll just charge :)

Then depending on which books you're allowed to use, allow me to point out some feats from the Miniatures Handbook(and Eberron CS, I think):

Powerful Charge(+1d8 dmg)

Greater Powerful Charge(increase powerful charge dmg one size)

Reckless Charge(+4 tohit/-4 ac)

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In my experiences Trample is just woefully useless. Even if you're mount is HUGE-size you can never Trample more than one creature. If you attempt and you either don't kill the creature or you cover another creature, you must reset to an unoccupied area.

Overrun has the same problem, not only that, but if you charge into a group of enemies with Improved Overrun, you don't provoke AoOs from THAT creature... all his nearby buddies still get AoOs for your movement through threatened squares.

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I think the comment about Mounted Combat being useless was likely referring to the fact that a 'majority adventures are indoors', but I could be wrong.

[Purple Dragon Knight]

Here's my half-orc Ftr1/Drd8:

Lance +1 & Rhino Armor, Charging: +16 atk; 3d8+21+2d6 dmg

Critical 20/x3, for 5d8+35+2d6 dmg

Now, here's his mount:

Name: Fenris
Creature: Cat, Big (Mountain Lion)
Creature Type: Large Animal
Hit Dice: 7
hit points: 67
Initiative: +3
Speed: 70 ft. (base 40, horseshoes of speed +30)
AC: 22 (+7 natural, -1 size, +3 dex, +3 armor)
BAB 5
Attacks: 2 claws +11 1d6+7, bite +6 1d8+3; 20/x2 (plus 2 rake +11 1d6+7 when charging or grappling)(when trampling/overrunning, 1 claw +17 1d6+7)
CMB: 13 (CMB 15 to overrun; CMB 17 when overrunning at the end of a charge)
Face/Reach: 10x10; 5ft.
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +8, Will +4
Abilities: str 24, dex 17, con 17, int 2, wis 15, cha 10
Skill ranks: Acrobatics 1, Perception 1, Stealth 5
Skill modifiers: Acrobatics +7 (+31 to jump), Perception +6, Stealth +15 (+23 in tall grass)
Feats: Power Attack, Improved Overrun, Endurance, Run
Tricks: attack x2, track, heel, down, defend, guard, pin, seek

Special: Pounce, Low light vision, Scent, Improved Grab, Rake, Link, Share Spells, Evasion, 4th HD ability score bump, Devotion

So.. he's got a pretty good CMB when overrunning... so I don't mind having the lion do the overrun check instead of my PC

[grasshopper_ea]

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

Here's my half-orc Ftr1/Drd8:

Lance +1 & Rhino Armor, Charging: +16 atk; 3d8+21+2d6 dmg

Critical 20/x3, for 5d8+35+2d6 dmg

Now, here's his mount:

Name: Fenris
Creature: Cat, Big (Mountain Lion)
Creature Type: Large Animal
Hit Dice: 7
hit points: 67
Initiative: +3
Speed: 70 ft. (base 40, horseshoes of speed +30)
AC: 22 (+7 natural, -1 size, +3 dex, +3 armor)
BAB 5
Attacks: 2 claws +11 1d6+7, bite +6 1d8+3; 20/x2 (plus 2 rake +11 1d6+7 when charging or grappling)(when trampling/overrunning, 1 claw +17 1d6+7)
CMB: 13 (CMB 15 to overrun; CMB 17 when overrunning at the end of a charge)
Face/Reach: 10x10; 5ft.
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +8, Will +4
Abilities: str 24, dex 17, con 17, int 2, wis 15, cha 10
Skill ranks: Acrobatics 1, Perception 1, Stealth 5
Skill modifiers: Acrobatics +7 (+31 to jump), Perception +6, Stealth +15 (+23 in tall grass)
Feats: Power Attack, Improved Overrun, Endurance, Run
Tricks: attack x2, track, heel, down, defend, guard, pin, seek

Special: Pounce, Low light vision, Scent, Improved Grab, Rake, Link, Share Spells, Evasion, 4th HD ability score bump, Devotion

So.. he's got a pretty good CMB when overrunning... so I don't mind having the lion do the overrun check instead of my PC

I like it.