I have wanted to take a whack at this, but I just have not had the time to digest all of Pathfinder.
Can someone propose a Confidence Artist base class?
I do not really envision a con artist singing, playing a musical instrument or casting spells. Bardic lore kinda fits if I close one eye and squint a little. I am looking for a full write up instead of trying to shoe horn a concept into Bard or Rogue.
Perform (oratory)
I'd just use an Expert, but switch around his class skills. Con artists don't need a base class.
Perform (oratory)
I'd just use an Expert, but switch around his class skills. Con artists don't need a base class.
Agree
What level, Fool?
Perform (oratory)
I'd just use an Expert, but switch around his class skills. Con artists don't need a base class.
That would work. I do not think it would ever be a viable PC though. And that may be part of the problem. I do not see a con artist as necessarily much of a fighter. However, to survive in D&D, he has to be.
"The Music Man" anyone?
He is certain a con artist. Not necessarily an example of all con artists. And, if I remember correctly, he actually can not play any instruments. Considering it is a musical, can he actually sing or is he only as talented as everyone else…in a musical?
Not to be annoying, but it seems a bit much as a base class. As a PrC, that different. What sort of powers should the con-artist have? Bonuses to bluff and diplomacy, ability to fascinate a crowd, ability to use "Suggestion" as the spell, ability to...what else?
I see your point about a PrC. However, I really think it could go either way. It seems the obvious entry classes are Bard and Rogue and, again, I do not see every con artist as a Bard nor sneak attacking.
Bluff, Diplomacy and Gather Information seem extremely restricted by Level. That is, after all, the con artist's bread and butter. With Level restrictions, he is no better than the Bard or Rogue.
So, yes, I would want to augment that. Without being horrendously broken. I have thought about modeling some special abilities off of Charm Person/Command/whatever else looks appropriate. That is where I have not really had time to review Pathfinder. I do not want to copy the Spells whole cloth. The abilities should be amazing, but not magical.
I am just being difficult, aren't I?
What level, Fool?
1 - 20
Not to be annoying, but it seems a bit much as a base class.
The more I think about this, I really disagree. I mean, Barbarians, Monks and Rangers are just Fighters. Druids and Paladins are just Clerics. They may have carved out a more specific niche in our psyche over the years. I see con artists as something quite separate from the thug/trap finder I view the Rogue as and the spell casting of the Bard really puts me off. Aren't there enough spell casting classes?
Is it in the SRD? I am not familiar with that.
I agree with Mirror Mirror.
The perfect con man. Take Perform oratory as the versatile perform skill with bluff. Then you fascinate the crowd with your patter while bluffing the audience to buy your worthless crap.
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Is it in the SRD? I am not familiar with that.
No. It was a system written by the god, Monte Cook, similar to Pathfinder, in so far as it being the next step beyond 3.5. It would be compatible with Pathfinder with minimal changes needed.
On the flip-side, I have a class I could email you if you'd like.
I was thinking something like the following, although it still needs a lot of work. I need to figure out where to put the special abilities and if some of them need to be x/day as I feel right now, this class is grossly underpowered.
Con Artist
Alignment
Any nonlawful
Hit Dice
d6
Class Skills
Acrobatics (Dex), Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Stealth (Dex), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skill Ranks per Level
6 + Int modifier.
Base Attack Bonus
As Sorcerer
Saves
As Sorcerer
Class Features
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Con Artists are proficient with all simple weapons. They are not proficient with any type of armor or shield.
Confident (Ex): A Con Artist may take 10 with Bluff even if stress and distractions would normally prevent him from doing so.
Fascinate (Ex): A Con Artist can use Bluff to cause one or more creatures to become fascinated with him. Each creature to be fascinated must be within 90 feet, able to see and hear the Con Artist, and capable of paying attention to him. The Con Artist must also be able to see the creatures affected. The distraction of a nearby combat or other dangers prevents this ability from working. For every three levels the Con Artist has attained beyond 1st, he can target one additional creature with this ability.
Suggestion (Ex): A Con Artist of 6th level or higher can use his Bluff to make a suggestion (as per the spell, however, magic resistance does not work against this ability as it is not magical) to a creature he has already fascinated (see above). Using this ability does not disrupt the fascinate effect, but it does require a standard action to activate (in addition to the free action to continue the fascinate effect). A Con Artist can use this ability more than once against an individual creature during an individual performance.
The Con (Ex): Once per day, you may reroll a Bluff check. You must decide to use this ability before the results are revealed. You must take the second roll, even if it is worse.
Mark (Ex): Once per day you may ingratiate someone towards you. You must spend 5 minutes speaking with your target. They must be able to hear and understand you. After 5 minutes you may produce an affect similar to Charm Person upon them. The target gets a Will save, however, spell resistance does not work against this ability because it is not magical. As Charm Person, this effect lasts for 1 hour/level.
I am thinking of adding some more spell like abilities based on the following spells.
Bane
Bless
Calm Emotions
Charm Person
Command
Daze
Discern Lies
Doom
Enthrall
Glibness
Rage
Sanctuary
Beguiler from 3.5? That has con artist written all over it. Good skill list, stealth and surprise based abilites, a specialization in illussion and enchantment spells? A class that is int/charisma based?If that doesn't scream con artist i dont know what does.
Beguiler from 3.5? That has con artist written all over it. Good skill list, stealth and surprise based abilites, a specialization in illussion and enchantment spells? A class that is int/charisma based?If that doesn't scream con artist i dont know what does.
Yes, based on what the OP wants (with some spellish abilities) Beguiler would be an excellent fit. It doesn't even need that much conversion; I think all you basically need to do is adjust the hit dice to match BAB, if it doesn't already, and edit class skills to match the selection in PFRPG.
Otherwise, I'd just build a Bard themed around Perform (Act) and/or Perform (Oratory). NOT ALL BARDS HAVE TO SING (I think the only bardic ability that actually requires a musical skill is Countersong, though correct me if I'm wrong, and that's hardly a key component of the class).
The class will work fine, you just need to refluff it. Perform (Oratory) would be especially apt, coming up with all the sob stories to wrench nearby suckers' hearts. Maybe throw in a few Rogue levels for good measure, to get in some sneak attack to fit a con artists' fighting style (definitely with a Feint build) and some rogue talents to help ensure a quick getaway.
How about using the Charlatan class from Dragon #335? It seems like it would be apropos.
Why do you need a class for this? Any class could easily be a con artist. All you need are a decent charisma, ranks in Bluff and Diplomacy (and maybe Disguise and Sleight of Hand), and the right attitude. Even the 2+Int skill classes can cover that much with either human + favored class or 12 Int + favored class.
I thank everyone for their input. I see now it is not worth the effort.
I am working on some more/alternate abilities. These are strongly inspired (stolen) from True20's Expert's Handbook. I have taken pains to change up the wording so they are not taken word for word from the original text. I hope this is not a copy right violation. If I have violated someone's protected property, please let me know and I will delete it immediately.
I have not decided yet what level to grant which ability yet. This is still a work in progress.
Convincing (Ex)
A Con Artist's lies are extremely convincing. He reduces any penalty, based on the lie's believability, to his Bluff check by 5.
The lie is believable +0 (unchanged)
The lie is unlikely +0
The lie is far-fetched –5
The lie is impossible –15
Flatter (Ex)
A Con Artist can distract a target by flattering them. The Con Artist can only attempt this ability outside of combat and it only works on one target at a time. The target must be able to hear and understand the Con Artist. When this ability is started, the target is allowed a Sense Motive check or a Will save (whichever is higher) against the Con Artist's Bluff check.
If the target fails, the Con Artist can continue talking for a number of minutes equal to one plus the Con Artist's CHA modifier (minimum one minute). During this time, the Con Artist must continue talking to the target. The target can take no actions other than interacting with the Con Artist and further suffers a -2
penalty to all Sense Motive and Notice checks during this time.
The Con Artist can not only flatter during this time, but talk about other topics with the target. The Con Artist gains a bonus to all Diplomacy checks made against the target equal to the number of minutes spent using this ability with the target up to a maximum of twice the Con Artist's level. This bonus last for one hour or until the Con Artist attacks the target, whichever comes first.
Any potential threat, such as an ally sneaking up on a flattered target, grants a new Sense Motive check or Will saving throw. Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, automatically stops the ability.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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I understand you don't see the con artist as much of a fighter, but feats that allow him or her to get away when the con goes south would be important. Why not make dodge and mobility bonus feats.
Also, an ability like Pass without trace would help.
Could some kind of class ability allow the con artist to improve their bluff and disguise checks if they observe a professional, another class, or a craft for a period of time? Call it Keen Eye, Keen Observation, or Faking It and allow them a bonus to bluff and disguise checks to impersonate a professional, artisan, or character class when they observe someone of that class for one hour within the last twenty-four hours.
I understand you don't see the con artist as much of a fighter...
A very valid point. Right now, the Class is completely useless in combat. Once I have more Class abilities, I can decide whether to bump up the BAB and/or allow some armor proficiencies. Your ideas offer me more options. Thank you.
Cover Story (Ex)
A Con Artist can weave a cover story into the mind of a target which the Con Artist or his allies may use to their advantage. Whenever a Con Artist successfully performs a Bluff on a specific target, the Con Artist or one of his allies gains a +1 bonus which can be used on a future Bluff check. These bonuses stack up to the Con Artist's level.
When the Con Artist or one of his allies use Bluff against this specific target, they can use all or part of the bonus. Unused portions may be used later.
The Con Artist must designate his allies that may use this bonus when he activates this ability. He may designate up to his Charisma bonus plus one allies.
When a Con Artist uses this ability on a target, the target is considered a dupe. A Con Artist can have a total number of dupes equal to his Charisma bonus plus one. Once a Con Artist drops a dupe, they loose any bonuses they had on that target.
I was thinking Confident and The Con would be 1st Level abilities. I was also thinking they should apply to Bluff and Diplomacy. Or is that too much? Maybe allow the take 10 on Bluff and Diplomacy at 1st, then add re-roll Bluff or Diplomacy at 2nd level.
Fast Talk (Ex)
Con Artist excel at talking their way out of conflict. They gain a +1 to any Interaction Skill used to avoid hostilities with opponents that have an Intelligence greater than 3. Con Artist also gain a +1 to Initiative if combat does occur. Both of these bonuses increase by 1 for every three additional levels in Con Artist.