According to the Rules as Written, is it allowable for a wizard to craft a wand of empowered (+2 spell lvl) fireball (3rd level spell)? The cost to create it comes out to 20,000 gp and change.
A wand cannot hold higher than a 4th level spell so no cannot get an empowered fireball however you are correct in so long as it doesn't exceed the spell level maximum of potions/wands, you may create metamagic enhanced potions/wands
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According to the Rules as Written, is it allowable for a wizard to craft a wand of empowered (+2 spell lvl) fireball (3rd level spell)? The cost to create it comes out to 20,000 gp and change.
Fireball is a 3rd level spell unless heightened, so yes you could, but it would be minimum caster level 7 to craft an empowered fireball, which is the earliest level you can empower it.
Edit: it simply takes a 5th level slot to memorize it, it doesn't change the spell level for DC or any other effect besides memorizing it.
According to the Rules as Written, is it allowable for a wizard to craft a wand of empowered (+2 spell lvl) fireball (3rd level spell)? The cost to create it comes out to 20,000 gp and change.Fireball is a 3rd level spell unless heightened, so yes you could, but it would be minimum caster level 7 to craft an empowered fireball, which is the earliest level you can empower it.
Edit: it simply takes a 5th level slot to memorize it, it doesn't change the spell level for DC or any other effect besides memorizing it.
There seems to be some disagreement. See the previous link. The wizard in question is 9th level and meets all the requirements.
I don't have a book with me but I'm pretty sure empower states that saving throws are not affected. if an Empowered fireball was a 5th level spell it would be a DC 15 + int/cha to save. It is a base 13 +int/cha and takes up a spell slot 2 levels higher than it's "actual spell level (3)"
A fireball Heighted to 5th however would function as a 5th level spell and not be able to be crafted into a wand.
I don't have a book with me but I'm pretty sure empower states that saving throws are not affected. if an Empowered fireball was a 5th level spell it would be a DC 15 + int/cha to save. It is a base 13 +int/cha and takes up a spell slot 2 levels higher than it's "actual spell level (3)"
A fireball Heighted to 5th however would function as a 5th level spell and not be able to be crafted into a wand.
Specifically, the metamagic feat in question was "Empower"
Per the Pathfinder RPG Reference Document:
"While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal."
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The empowered fireball, despite not literally being a 5th level spell, still uses up a 5th level spell slot and counts as one for the purposes of crafting limitations. This was covered in the 3.5 FAQ, and Pathfinder does not change how this in particular is handled.
Can you use a metamagic feat when creating items?
Yes; calculate the magic item’s price using the new spell level (as adjusted by the metamagic feat).
A wand of maximized cure light wounds, for example, would cost 21,000 gp (spell level 4 times caster level 7 times 750 gp). You couldn’t make a wand of maximized cure moderate wounds, because that’s a 5th-level spell, which is beyond the spell level limit of a wand.
If you’re not using the spell’s level to calculate the price, remember to estimate the price using the improved potency of the effect for comparison (rather than using the non-metamagic version of the spell).
Also, the Empower Metamagic feat does not raise the saving throw DC of this spell. An Empowered Fireball uses up a 5th level spell slot but uses 3rd level saving throw DCs. The feat Heighten Spell allows the spell to increase its save DC. For example, you could Heighten a Fireball to 5th level and use the 5th level saving throw DCs and then Empower it, but it would take up a 7th level spell slot.
In either case, you could not put it inside of a Wand.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
The empowered fireball, despite not literally being a 5th level spell, still uses up a 5th level spell slot and counts as one for the purposes of crafting limitations. This was covered in the 3.5 FAQ, and Pathfinder does not change how this in particular is handled.
Can you use a metamagic feat when creating items?
Yes; calculate the magic item’s price using the new spell level (as adjusted by the metamagic feat).
A wand of maximized cure light wounds, for example, would cost 21,000 gp (spell level 4 times caster level 7 times 750 gp). You couldn’t make a wand of maximized cure moderate wounds, because that’s a 5th-level spell, which is beyond the spell level limit of a wand.
If you’re not using the spell’s level to calculate the price, remember to estimate the price using the improved potency of the effect for comparison (rather than using the non-metamagic version of the spell).Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
That may be the case I havn't read the 3.5 FAQ. I'm just going by what metamagic feats do and item crafting feats do. If I was DMing and my player wanted to put that much gold down on a metamagic wand of fireball, I'd let him because IMO fireball isn't that awesome. As best as I can tell rules would be minimum caster level 7 * spell level 3 * base cost of wand 750 and get you a 9d6 fireball with +7 on spell penetration checks for 15,750 GP? I'm doing this without a book in front of me but that is right I think. Also spell focus evocation and High int wouldn't figure into the DC.
According to the Rules as Written, is it allowable for a wizard to craft a wand of empowered (+2 spell lvl) fireball (3rd level spell)? The cost to create it comes out to 20,000 gp and change.
No because wand can hold only 4th level spells and empowered fireball is 5th and here is the relevant passage from the rules (feat chapter):
Magic Items and Metamagic Spells: With the right item creation feat, you can store a metamagic version of a spell in a scroll, potion, or wand. Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spell's higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat). A character doesn't need the metamagic feat to activate an item storing a metamagic version of a spell.
According to the Rules as Written, is it allowable for a wizard to craft a wand of empowered (+2 spell lvl) fireball (3rd level spell)? The cost to create it comes out to 20,000 gp and change.No because wand can hold only 4th level spells and empowered fireball is 5th and here is the relevant passage from the rules (feat chapter):
Magic Items and Metamagic Spells: With the right item creation feat, you can store a metamagic version of a spell in a scroll, potion, or wand. Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spell's higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat). A character doesn't need the metamagic feat to activate an item storing a metamagic version of a spell.
Empower doesn't change a spells level, it changes what level spell slot you memorize it as. a quickened maximized fireball is a level 3 spell.
Why do the 2 sources (d20 System Reference Document and 3.5 FAQ) directly conflict with each other? The same wording that is in the Pathfinder Reference Document is in the 3.5 System Reference Document and it seems like it's different in the FAQ.
Jason, I'd really like a specific ruling on this. Different passages from the same document (Pathfinder RPG reference document) say different things.
Empower doesn't change a spells level, it changes what level spell slot you memorize it as. a quickened maximized fireball is a level 3 spell.No because wand can hold only 4th level spells and empowered fireball is 5th and here is the relevant passage from the rules (feat chapter):
Magic Items and Metamagic Spells: With the right item creation feat, you can store a metamagic version of a spell in a scroll, potion, or wand. Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spell's higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat). A character doesn't need the metamagic feat to activate an item storing a metamagic version of a spell.
I don't think you read the quote fully.
FWIW it's Page 113 second column second paragraph.
Empower doesn't change a spells level, it changes what level spell slot you memorize it as. a quickened maximized fireball is a level 3 spell.No because wand can hold only 4th level spells and empowered fireball is 5th and here is the relevant passage from the rules (feat chapter):
Magic Items and Metamagic Spells: With the right item creation feat, you can store a metamagic version of a spell in a scroll, potion, or wand. Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spell's higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat). A character doesn't need the metamagic feat to activate an item storing a metamagic version of a spell.
I don't think you read the quote fully.
FWIW it's Page 113 second column second paragraph.
I read it properly. However, the only metamagic feat I'm aware of that raises a spells level is heighten spell. which stops you from making a wand of charm person heightened to 9. Nothing in that quote changes the mechanics of a metamagic feat like empower, which is the one in question. If that's not right, fine, but it would be very simple to have added a clause that says "treat all spells affected by a metamagic feat as a spell of the same level they are prepared at." It doesn't state that anywhere in the quote.
I read it properly. However, the only metamagic feat I'm aware of that raises a spells level is heighten spell. which stops you from making a wand of charm person heightened to 9. Nothing in that quote changes the mechanics of a metamagic feat like empower, which is the one in question. If that's not right, fine, but it would be very simple to have added a clause that says "treat all spells affected by a metamagic feat as a spell of the same level they are prepared at." It doesn't state that anywhere in the quote.
Seems pretty clear to me. The rules aren't written by lawyers trying to write iron tight laws of the game, they are written by a bunch of folks who like to play the game and should be read as such. If you want iron tight rules this is the wrong game.
Why do the 2 sources (d20 System Reference Document and 3.5 FAQ) directly conflict with each other? The same wording that is in the Pathfinder Reference Document is in the 3.5 System Reference Document and it seems like it's different in the FAQ.
I wish they had just said "an empowered fireball is a 5th level spell, world without end, amen". It would've cleared up a lot of things...
The Fireball is a bit to high for any useful meta magics but here are a few that I have found handy.
Maximized wand of Magic Missile. Great fire support wand.
Empowered wand of False Life. The wizards heal spell(I love to make this an eternal wand - 3 charges per day)
Widened wand of Burning Hands. Good for clearing brush.
Why do the 2 sources (d20 System Reference Document and 3.5 FAQ) directly conflict with each other? The same wording that is in the Pathfinder Reference Document is in the 3.5 System Reference Document and it seems like it's different in the FAQ.I wish they had just said "an empowered fireball is a 5th level spell, world without end, amen". It would've cleared up a lot of things...
Exactly. Is an attack an attack action or is it a standard action. If it's an attack, can I use it in a full attack? The book could have been a lot clearer on many fronts. Unless there's something in the rule book that states applying a metamagic feat raises the spell level, I'm assuming it doesn't, because Heighten does, and why would we use heighten, if we could do the same thing without.
To Dennis Da Ogre, why is it wrong that I think that? My interpretation is completely valid with how the abilities are written, the only argument you have against it is "I don't agree."
Activating a wand is a standard action. That means no melee attacks or any spell casting unless you are casting quickened.
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Dennis is correct, and he has listed text from the PRPG that backs up this reference. An empowered fireball is treated as a 5th level spell in terms of crafting it. This is why crafting a Scroll of Empowered Fireball is 5 (spell level) x 9 (caster level) x 25 (base) and not 3 x 9 x 25.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
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Because the 4th level spell limit was put in there to stop things like wand of empowered, maximized, widened fireballs being created. The game mechanics answer would be that if you wanted to do this, you would need to make a staff, which is a higher level crafting feat, and therefore maintains the balance.
From my perspective the point of that level limit is to keep the game balanced. Its why they restricted the + enchantments of armor and weapons by caster level, so you dont have 8th level characters running around with +5 everythings, it maintains balance. Allowing a 9th level character to be able to chain cast empowered fireball 50 times in a row would be very unbalanced in my world, as I would imagine it would in a lot of other peoples worlds. If you have no problem with it and can craft encounters successfully without it being a concern, by all means house rule that wands can exceed 4th level spells to allow it.
It seems to me that the argument that it fills a 5th level "slot" is semantics regarding spell DC and SR, which is not really applicable. The simple fact is that when you add the metamagic feat effect of "empowered" to the 3rd level spell fireball, it is no longer a 3rd level spell, but a 5th level spell. Just because they(the game designers) felt that scaling the DC made the metamagic line of feats too powerful does not mean that the spell level didn't change by applying the feat.
** Edit ** After re-reading, this comes off a little argumentative and "in your face", which isn't really my intent. It just seems like the rules are fairly straighforward to me..
Dennis is correct, and he has listed text from the PRPG that backs up this reference. An empowered fireball is treated as a 5th level spell in terms of crafting it. This is why crafting a Scroll of Empowered Fireball is 5 (spell level) x 9 (caster level) x 25 (base) and not 3 x 9 x 25.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
The text listed does not state that. That's how you are interpreting it. I'm not saying you are correct or incorrect, I'm saying that the book is unclear if it works according to your interpretation. The text states use the new higher spell level. It doesn't say raise the spell level to the slot the spell is memorized in. Again there's nothing that says empower raises the spell level. That is reserved for heighten spell.
Because the 4th level spell limit was put in there to stop things like wand of empowered, maximized, widened fireballs being created. The game mechanics answer would be that if you wanted to do this, you would need to make a staff, which is a higher level crafting feat, and therefore maintains the balance.
From my perspective the point of that level limit is to keep the game balanced. Its why they restricted the + enchantments of armor and weapons by caster level, so you dont have 8th level characters running around with +5 everythings, it maintains balance. Allowing a 9th level character to be able to chain cast empowered fireball 50 times in a row would be very unbalanced in my world, as I would imagine it would in a lot of other peoples worlds. If you have no problem with it and can craft encounters successfully without it being a concern, by all means house rule that wands can exceed 4th level spells to allow it.
It seems to me that the argument that it fills a 5th level "slot" is semantics regarding spell DC and SR, which is not really applicable. The simple fact is that when you add the metamagic feat effect of "empowered" to the 3rd level spell fireball, it is no longer a 3rd level spell, but a 5th level spell. Just because they(the game designers) felt that scaling the DC made the metamagic line of feats too powerful does not mean that the spell level didn't change by applying the feat.
** Edit ** After re-reading, this comes off a little argumentative and "in your face", which isn't really my intent. It just seems like the rules are fairly straighforward to me..
I'm not offended in the slightest. Let me ask you a question and see if you still think this level empowered fireball wand is overpowered. Let's assume level 10 character, max casting level on the wand. 22,500(which could be used much better) GP for an item with 50 charges. 15d6 damage can be defeated by spell resistance, successful save for half, evasion for none, and fire resistance/immunity. 45 damage on average with no save 50 times and it's gone. 450 GP per use. That is assuming you can use it. Fireball tends to not make friends with the party fighter. Also you can be ambushed and yet again, enemies are too close to friends to use it. If the character can come up with the money to make the item, I would let them, because they're not putting it towards a +3 mithril buckler or ring of invisibility they can use forever, and cast a more useful spell that doesn't have a save and doesn't kill their friends.
Let me ask you a question and see if you still think this level empowered fireball wand is overpowered...
The question isn't precisely whether it is "overpowered", but simply whether it is allowed. It isn't, as the text states fairly clearly, and the D&D 3.5 FAQ made abundantly clear.
A 10th level Wizard having an empowered wand of fireball is about as powerful as a 5th level Wizard with a wand of fireball (which is allowed). Both are very powerful. One is allowed by the rules, the other is a houserule. Not a big deal, though important to recognize.
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I think you have to worse case what the effects are when you change one of the basic rules of the game, and make sure you can live with the results. It has been my experience that players (including me when I am on the other side of the screen), will maximize the effectiveness of their useful tools, so you have to assume that having this sort of firepower means they are going to adjust tactics to allow it to play a useful role in their combats. I don't think its completely overpowering, but consider a group of say 3-5 giants together. Two empowered fireballs in consecutive rounds =26d6 vs 18d6. Thats the equivalent of an entire extra fireball, and probably enough to kill them or drive them off regardless of saves, etc. Add to that the fact that this entire AP module is outdoors, in giant sized areas, etc. and this wand could have a major effect on the group's ability to dish damage hard and fast. Now granted it wont help every time and certainly less in some of the specific encounters I won't spoil by mentioning, but I think you have to consider that it could impact the ease or difficulty of a lot of the encounters the original OPs party will be facing. If this were a fire giant fortress, maybe less so :)
Would it wreck my game, no. Would I re-evaluate the strength of all my encounters again to see if they need tweaking, yes.
*Edit* - This is a crossover conversation from a RotRL AP thread, which is the reason for some of my above comments about adventure context.
That may be the case I havn't read the 3.5 FAQ. I'm just going by what metamagic feats do and item crafting feats do. If I was DMing and my player wanted to put that much gold down on a metamagic wand of fireball, I'd let him because IMO fireball isn't that awesome. As best as I can tell rules would be minimum caster level 7 * spell level 3 * base cost of wand 750 and get you a 9d6 fireball with +7 on spell penetration checks for 15,750 GP? I'm doing this without a book in front of me but that is right I think. Also spell focus evocation and High int wouldn't figure into the DC.
Aside from the question of whether it is possible or not, where are you getting minimum caster level of 7?
The minimum wizard level is 9, minimum sorcerer level is 10. Empower adds two levels, so that 3rd level Empowered Fireball uses a 5th level slot.
No 7th level caster in the game can cast an Empowered Fireball.
I recall a creation feat in Lost Empires of Faerun called Craft Scepter, let you make what was functionally the same as a wand, but of 4th-6th level spells. I think that's a good middle ground for someone pretty focused on using wands, 1 feat lets them keep going on wand creation.
I hear what you're saying, OP, and your point is valid. Only one Metamagic feat changes the spell's level, so obviously that oft-quoted rule about putting spells into potions, scrolls, and wands at the higher level after applying metamagic can only be referencing the Heighten Spell feat and no other.
If we really want to get rules-lawyerish on this one (and I myself am a big fan of rules-lawyering), then I think your ruling is technically correct by the RAW.
But it is clearly not the intent of the rules.
Wizards, with their bonus feats, and not many feats they really need anyway, are bound to have a few metamagic feats after a while. When they start crafting wantds (etc.), they would always add in those metamagic effects if they could. It's not like empowering that Fireball makes it take a higher level slot from the wand (or extra charges, or anything).
So if they could, they would, and dang near every potion, scroll, and wand you find would be matamagicked out the wazoo.
We could argue that it's more expensive, which is true, but this stuff is being made to save lives, to win life-or-death combat. This is not the place to skimp on price.
Another point in question: why would they even put in that sentence about using the higher spell level if your interpretation is what they had intended to mean? After all, it's patently obvious that a Heightened Fireball at 5th level is a 5th level spell, and anything else Heightened to level X is an Xth level spell.
That sentence is absolutely pointless if they are only talking about Heighten Spell because what it says, to use the higher spell level, is intrinsically required of any Heightened spell, and too obvious to waste space writing in the rulebook.
So the alternative explanation is probably the correct one: They meant to say something like
Yeah, if they meant that, then they clearly worded it poorly.
But if they meant your interpretation, then they were just wasting ink and wasting space on a rule too obvious to bother including.
Finally, the experts at the 3.5 FAQ clarified this for you, quite explicitly. Paizo didn't change the wording much, if at all, so the FAQ interpretation for the 3.5 ruleset is very much an applicable guideline to interpreting this rule in the Pathfinder book.
So I suggest we both take off our rules-lawyer's hats and think about what the rules' authors meant to say, and think about what the consequences of interpreting it your way would mean to magic items everywhere, and think about what such a wand of Empowered Fireball might do to your game, or to anyone's game.
If you do think about these things, without wearing your rules-lawyer hat, I think you'll conclude, as did I, that the intent of the rule is something like the version that I rewrote here in this post.
Then...
Then we can talk about whether it's a good houserule or not to make this change to the RAI.
So... I don't get wands of raise dead and teleport?
We could argue that it's more expensive, which is true,
Actually since pricing is based on "Spell Level" the items would also be priced at the non-meta magic level. So the rules lawyer wand of Empowered Fireball would cost the same the normal wand of fireballs (of the same caster level).
Crafting cost:
"375 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster."
375 gp x 3 x 10 = 11,250gp for normal fireball (10d6)
375 gp x 3 x 10 = 11,250gp for empowered fireball (15d6)
375 gp x 1 x 9 = 3,375gp for magic missile (5 missiles)
375 gp x 1 x 9 = 3,375gp for quickened magic missile (5 missiles)
The rules make a lot more sense when you read them like a normal person rather than as a lawyer.
PS: Those wands of quickened magic missile would sell like crazy!!
We could argue that it's more expensive, which is true,Actually since pricing is based on "Spell Level" the items would also be priced at the non-meta magic level. So the rules lawyer wand of Empowered Fireball would cost the same the normal wand of fireballs (of the same caster level).
"375 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster."
375 gp x 3 x 10 = 11,250gp for empowered fireball (15d6)
375 gp x 3 x 10 = 11,250gp for normal fireball (10d6)The rules make a lot more sense when you read them like a normal person rather than as a lawyer.
This.
You cannot read these rules with a clear mind and tell anyone that the intent of the rules were to allow casters to freely add whichever metamagic effects they desire to any wand they create, without penalty. Even the question of RAW is up in the air. This isn't an issue of RAW contradicting intent. This is an issue of barely ambiguous rules text being quibbled over pointlessly, since everyone at this point is well aware of how it's supposed to work.
You cannot read these rules with a clear mind and tell anyone that the intent of the rules were to allow casters to freely add whichever metamagic effects they desire to any wand they create, without penalty. Even the question of RAW is up in the air. This isn't an issue of RAW contradicting intent. This is an issue of barely ambiguous rules text being quibbled over pointlessly, since everyone at this point is well aware of how it's supposed to work.
Maybe you misread my post (maybe I didn't write it clearly). I've been saying this all along. But if you extend the whole crazy concept put forth (see quote below) this is where it leads you.
Empower doesn't change a spells level, it changes what level spell slot you memorize it as. a quickened maximized fireball is a level 3 spell.
If folks just read stuff at face value it makes a lot more sense.
There are 3 sources of information on this issue as far as I'm concerned. Two of these are from the Pathfinder RPG rules. The third is from the D&D 3.5 FAQ. Two of the sources say a metamagic feat applied to a spell can't make the spell level go over what's allowed for a wand. One of the three says it's allowed.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems/magicItemCreation.html
3rd Paragraph
While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/feats.html
Magic Items and Metamagic Spells: With the right item creation feat, you can store a metamagic version of a spell in a scroll, potion, or wand. Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spell's higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat). A character doesn't need the metamagic feat to activate an item storing a metamagic version of a spell.
Can you use a metamagic feat when creating items?
Yes; calculate the magic item’s price using the new spell level (as adjusted by the metamagic feat).
A wand of maximized cure light wounds, for example, would cost 21,000 gp (spell level 4 times caster level 7 times 750 gp). You couldn’t make a wand of maximized cure moderate wounds, because that’s a 5th-level spell, which is beyond the spell level limit of a wand.
If you’re not using the spell’s level to calculate the price, remember to estimate the price using the improved potency of the effect for comparison (rather than using the non-metamagic version of the spell).
And, for the record, I have already decided that you aren't allowed to apply metamagic feats to any crafted item in my game. That's what the Metamagic Rods are for. I just want to be sure what the RAW say so I can know what (if anything) I am changing.
There are no rules banning meta magics from items but if you do use meta magics you must apply it as the new spell level.
There is nothing wrong with a wand of maximized magic missiles it is just very expensive.
L4 spell x 9 CL = 36 x 750gp = 27000gp
There are no rules banning meta magics from items but if you do use meta magics you must apply it as the new spell level.
There is nothing wrong with a wand of maximized magic missiles it is just very expensive.
I understand that. I am houseruling this so we don't even have to have the discussion of whether or not a spell is of a particular level when a metamagic feat is applied to it.
That may be the case I havn't read the 3.5 FAQ. I'm just going by what metamagic feats do and item crafting feats do. If I was DMing and my player wanted to put that much gold down on a metamagic wand of fireball, I'd let him because IMO fireball isn't that awesome. As best as I can tell rules would be minimum caster level 7 * spell level 3 * base cost of wand 750 and get you a 9d6 fireball with +7 on spell penetration checks for 15,750 GP? I'm doing this without a book in front of me but that is right I think. Also spell focus evocation and High int wouldn't figure into the DC.Aside from the question of whether it is possible or not, where are you getting minimum caster level of 7?
The minimum wizard level is 9, minimum sorcerer level is 10. Empower adds two levels, so that 3rd level Empowered Fireball uses a 5th level slot.
No 7th level caster in the game can cast an Empowered Fireball.
Correct sir. bad math
I understand that. I am houseruling this so we don't even have to have the discussion of whether or not a spell is of a particular level when a metamagic feat is applied to it.There are no rules banning meta magics from items but if you do use meta magics you must apply it as the new spell level.
There is nothing wrong with a wand of maximized magic missiles it is just very expensive.
So.. are you going to lower the cost for a staff of power in your game which already has metamagic feats applied to it, or just tell the wizard that he has to pay full price but the spells aren't heightened.
We could argue that it's more expensive, which is true,Actually since pricing is based on "Spell Level" the items would also be priced at the non-meta magic level. So the rules lawyer wand of Empowered Fireball would cost the same the normal wand of fireballs (of the same caster level).
Crafting cost:
"375 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster."375 gp x 3 x 10 = 11,250gp for normal fireball (10d6)
375 gp x 3 x 10 = 11,250gp for empowered fireball (15d6)
375 gp x 1 x 9 = 3,375gp for magic missile (5 missiles)
375 gp x 1 x 9 = 3,375gp for quickened magic missile (5 missiles)The rules make a lot more sense when you read them like a normal person rather than as a lawyer.
PS: Those wands of quickened magic missile would sell like crazy!!
Again, the cost IS greater, not monetarily for the empowered fireball wand, but for the fact that the creater now has to expend 2 precious feats to make this item, when they could be putting that money towards a useful item such as a ring of invisibility. Which would scare you more as a DM, wand of empowered fireball at level 10 or wand of enervation or black tentacles.. it's a no brainer to me. Let them have it, let it be useful, modify some encounters, throw in some flankers on their fighter to limit its uses or some fire immunes or evasion. If a player's going to drop multiple feats to do something cool and special, I'm going to let them, especially when the rulebook as written leans towards what they are doing being correct.
Funny enough, there is a trait that could allow this:
Magical Lineage:
That would let you make a CL 7, 4th level empowered Fireball (10500gp cost to make). If you picked fireball at 1st level.
So.. are you going to lower the cost for a staff of power in your game which already has metamagic feats applied to it, or just tell the wizard that he has to pay full price but the spells aren't heightened.I understand that. I am houseruling this so we don't even have to have the discussion of whether or not a spell is of a particular level when a metamagic feat is applied to it.There are no rules banning meta magics from items but if you do use meta magics you must apply it as the new spell level.
There is nothing wrong with a wand of maximized magic missiles it is just very expensive.
Basically, if he's specifically crafting a staff of power, all that stuff is already figured into the price. I'm ruling that there is no way of adding additional metamagic to any item. If it already has it built into it per the description, then it's fair game. I'm trying to eliminate the need for the argument entirely.
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Hey guys. I think part of the thing that some of you are missing is that the discussing isn't about allowing an wand of empowered fireball. It is allowing a wand to have any spell( lower than 5th ) /metamagic combination. Sure, fireball isn't exactly the best spell in all situations, but that once you allow it for fireball, you can use it for anything. So you have to look at the power level for all cases, not just a specific case before determining what you want your house rule to be. If you want to make one. I think the intended ruling for this was that an empowered 3rd level spell be treated as a 5th level spell for item creation purposes.
Hey guys. I think part of the thing that some of you are missing is that the discussing isn't about allowing an wand of empowered fireball. It is allowing a wand to have any spell( lower than 5th ) /metamagic combination. Sure, fireball isn't exactly the best spell in all situations, but that once you allow it for fireball, you can use it for anything. So you have to look at the power level for all cases, not just a specific case before determining what you want your house rule to be. If you want to make one. I think the intended ruling for this was that an empowered 3rd level spell be treated as a 5th level spell for item creation purposes.
Again, I'm not disagreeing with that point entirely. I'm looking at how the wording for these feats reads and not reading anything into them. If what your saying was the intended ruling I wish it were spelled out in the rulebook. As it reads I am just assuming the higher level spell to refer to heighten. I am somewhat biased in that I as a player despise buying items that are consumed. I would rather purchase something that gives a constant effect and is not used up and can be upgraded later. Bracers of armor..now I don't have to memorize mage armor, ring of invisibility.. no more slots waisted on invisibility, etc. I also like to be more creative than doing fireball 50 times in a row. A sleet storm is much more entertaining.
If you don't like items that are used up make a continuous wand. With 3 charges per/day the costs come out a little less than a 50 charge wand.
If you don't like items that are used up make a continuous wand. With 3 charges per/day the costs come out a little less than a 50 charge wand.
I am much more likely to use an item like that.. but you won't find fireball on it :) mirror image maybe..
You cannot read these rules with a clear mind and tell anyone that the intent of the rules were to allow casters to freely add whichever metamagic effects they desire to any wand they create, without penalty. Even the question of RAW is up in the air. This isn't an issue of RAW contradicting intent. This is an issue of barely ambiguous rules text being quibbled over pointlessly, since everyone at this point is well aware of how it's supposed to work.Maybe you misread my post (maybe I didn't write it clearly). I've been saying this all along. But if you extend the whole crazy concept put forth (see quote below) this is where it leads you.
Empower doesn't change a spells level, it changes what level spell slot you memorize it as. a quickened maximized fireball is a level 3 spell.If folks just read stuff at face value it makes a lot more sense.
I was quoting you to voice my support for your statement. That's what "This." means.
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There are 3 sources of information on this issue as far as I'm concerned. Two of these are from the Pathfinder RPG rules. The third is from the D&D 3.5 FAQ. Two of the sources say a metamagic feat applied to a spell can't make the spell level go over what's allowed for a wand. One of the three says it's allowed.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems/magicItemCreation.html
3rd Paragraph
While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/feats.html
Magic Items and Metamagic Spells: With the right item creation feat, you can store a metamagic version of a spell in a scroll, potion, or wand. Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spell's higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat). A character doesn't need the metamagic feat to activate an item storing a metamagic version of a spell.
...Can you use a metamagic feat when creating items?
Yes; calculate the magic item’s price using the new spell level (as adjusted by the metamagic feat).
A wand of maximized cure light wounds, for example, would cost 21,000 gp (spell level 4 times caster level 7 times 750 gp). You couldn’t make a wand of maximized cure moderate wounds, because that’s a 5th-level spell, which is beyond the spell level limit of a wand.
If you’re not using the spell’s level to calculate the price, remember to estimate the price using the improved potency of the effect for comparison (rather than using the non-metamagic version of
I had to read this post a couple of times to understand where you are comming from, heres what i came up with...
The biggest mistake is that you are looking at a single part of the sentence not the entire paragraph in the context it is written.
1. This paragraph is refering to how to calculate magic items, it is not specific to wands or potions that have restricted levels and in fact points you to seek out those rules elsewhere. the highlighted line simply refers to the fact that you can put a 1st level spell into an item as if it was a 2nd level or higher with metamagic feats.
2. Is a bit more specific on the level limit rules and does indicate that Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spell's higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat). . Like many have mentioned correct wording of this would have been to use spell slot instead of spell level and most casual readers will interpret it this way since in the FAQ example thats exactly how its been interpreted (see 3.)
3. The 3.5 FAQ clarifies this casual reading with an actual example and since it is an FAQ is not a re-writing of the rule and thus should not be read as one.
Summary 1. is a vague general rule (look elsewhere for more details), 2. is the more concise rule, and 3. is just an alternate wording interpretation of rule 2.
Again, the cost IS greater, not monetarily for the empowered fireball wand, but for the fact that the creater now has to expend 2 precious feats to make this item, when they could be putting that money towards a useful item such as a ring of invisibility. Which would scare you more as a DM, wand of empowered fireball at level 10 or wand of enervation or black tentacles..
Oh, I have just the thing for you then, here is a wand of quickened black tentacles just for you, and at the same price as the non-quickened version!
Again, the cost IS greater, not monetarily for the empowered fireball wand, but for the fact that the creater now has to expend 2 precious feats to make this item, when they could be putting that money towards a useful item such as a ring of invisibility. Which would scare you more as a DM, wand of empowered fireball at level 10 or wand of enervation or black tentacles..Oh, I have just the thing for you then, here is a wand of quickened black tentacles just for you, and at the same price as the non-quickened version!
Since activating a wand is a standard action, Would it do any good to put a quickened spell in one. Would the tentacles just grapple really fast?
by the way if you wanted very fast tentacles it would cost you 45,000 GP instead of 21,000
Edit P.S. I get the feeling you think I don't like you. This is not the case, I just disagree with your interpretation of this particular rule. Again I'll state, I don't even think you're necessarily wrong, I'm stating if the rule is the way you're interpretting it, writing it that way would have been much appreciated.