Reoccurring Stat Blocks

[Arnim Thayer]

Having run through quite a few PF Society scenarios as a GM, I must say that the referencing of previous stat blocks for thugs or minions becomes tiresome. Is it possible to put the stat blocks in the back of a scenario for reference, or maybe as a pull-out sheet for the GM?

Presently, I transfer the info into a stat block page or NPC card for ease of play, but I don't always have the time. I understand why monsters are done this way, but not reoccurring minions from the previous encounter.

[MillerHero]

Arnim Thayer wrote:

Having run through quite a few PF Society scenarios as a GM, I must say that the referencing of previous stat blocks for thugs or minions becomes tiresome. Is it possible to put the stat blocks in the back of a scenario for reference, or maybe as a pull-out sheet for the GM?

Presently, I transfer the info into a stat block page or NPC card for ease of play, but I don't always have the time. I understand why monsters are done this way, but not reoccurring minions from the previous encounter.

I think that there is a limit on the number of pages in a scenario. But why? They are pdf only right? I like the idea of additional stat blocks in the back. Customers who can't afford the extra pages to print can choose not to print the extra pages.

[Herald]

I too would like to have the stat blocks in the back, in order of tiers. (example: 1-2, 3-4, 7-8)

That way I could have a booklet I could print out for each group of NPCs. Then when I am at a con, I only pull out the one I am running and not get confused.

[Deussu]

I've heard of instances where the GM accidentally ran a higher tier combat simply because he mixed up the encounters, possibly due to being separated on multiple pages.

[Wintergreen]

Deussu wrote:

I've heard of instances where the GM accidentally ran a higher tier combat simply because he mixed up the encounters, possibly due to being separated on multiple pages.

Yeah I'll admit to doing that on more than one occasion!

*hangs head in shame*

[Kyle Baird]

Wintergreen wrote:

Deussu wrote:

I've heard of instances where the GM accidentally ran a higher tier combat simply because he mixed up the encounters, possibly due to being separated on multiple pages.

Yeah I'll admit to doing that on more than one occasion!

*hangs head in shame*

Bad Wintergreen! BAD!

[Joshua J. Frost]

I'm open to the idea of storing the stat blocks in appendices in the back. I'll have to give this some more thought (and planning and mock-ups etc) before I can commit to doing it however.

[Shisumo]

Let me add to the chorus of those requesting it. It has been a major issue for several of the part-time GMs in our home PFS group, especially since we also play Heroes of Rokugan, which does use the "all the stats in the back" format and therefore always gets the favorable comparison between the two.

A set of appendices that break down the encounters by Tier - i.e., Appendix One: Encounters for Tier 1-2 - would be ideal, I think. It might add slightly to the page count, but as a PDF-only product, that's less of an issue, yes?

[Chef's Slaad]

The shackled city book did just this. IMO it turned out quite well.

[chade66]

I also spent/waste a lot of time moving stats to additional pages for encounters to make sure that I can find them quickly during encounters. I would love to see separate stats in the back for ease of not only finding them, but keeping them together in the correct tier.

[Kyle Baird]

I make custom pages for each encounter. Each page has all the relevant stat blocks, conditions that are likely to come into effect, spells that are likely to be used, any special terrain information, etc. That single page (sometimes two) is all I refer to during the encounter.

[joela]

Kyle Baird wrote:

Wintergreen wrote:

Deussu wrote:

I've heard of instances where the GM accidentally ran a higher tier combat simply because he mixed up the encounters, possibly due to being separated on multiple pages.

Yeah I'll admit to doing that on more than one occasion!

*hangs head in shame*

Bad Wintergreen! BAD!

Mine was the reverse, using lower end stats for what should have been a higher tier session.

[Kyle Baird]

joela wrote:

Mine was the reverse, using lower end stats for what should have been a higher tier session.

Bad joela! BAD!

[Arnim Thayer]

Joshua Frost wrote:

I'm open to the idea of storing the stat blocks in appendices in the back. I'll have to give this some more thought (and planning and mock-ups etc) before I can commit to doing it however.

Thanks for taking this under consideration; this is yet reason for my continued support of all things Paizo! Having seen NPC appendices used successfully in past 3.5 products, I think this would be a useful format change for future Pathfinder Society Scenarios.

[Deussu]

As long as it's not done in the fashion of Barrow of the Forgotten King, I'm good. Having run that was one of the most awful DM experiences.

The idiocy in it was to have not just stat blocks, but whole encounters packed in the end, one on each spread. There were a total of 27 combats (*NNNGHN*), and as I ran it I began to hate it, wondering if there's a story at all. Later I found out there was some pages before the combat spreads that were supposed to go between them.

Also, it was a little booklet, not a PDF. You couldn't just print the relevant pages and shuffle them in the order you desire.

[james maissen]

Joshua J. Frost wrote:

I'm open to the idea of storing the stat blocks in appendices in the back. I'll have to give this some more thought (and planning and mock-ups etc) before I can commit to doing it however.

Please do so, and certainly please do not have NPCs stated as 'same as encounter #1 but replace X with Y' or 'same as lower tier but add/alter something'.

Not only is this a REAL pain to run without doing up the stat blocks yourself (which when I have the time to prep I do, but it takes away from other prep I would have done if I didn't need to do this), but it just makes the product look amateurish.

Is there a reason that a PDF only product is concerned overmuch with page/word count of stat blocks? It hinders the judging experience, for myself and others.

I mean personally I would like faction missions to be on separate pages, that way I wouldn't be cutting them out and having to print them out each time I run a given module. But rather I could print them out once and keep them with the module... trying to do that with things 1/3 of a page just isn't as readily feasible.

Now I am heartened and delightfully surprised by the willingness of paizo to listen to us, but its counterpoint is that I am just as surprised at how many times you seem to need to reinvent the wheel. You have people there with a large amount of experience running a shared campaign like this, as well as a large pool of players with similar experience. Draw from both as I'm seeing newbie mistakes that while well intentioned, honestly needed have ever occurred. Pathfinder Society has a very nice feel to it on one level, but it is so rough around the edges that I am leery of really investing myself in it.

-James

[Shisumo]

james maissen wrote:

Is there a reason that a PDF only product is concerned overmuch with page/word count of stat blocks? It hinders the judging experience, for myself and others.

Every extra word and especially every extra statblock adds to the editing workload (see also, "Shipyard Rats."). Josh is getting us two adventures a month - it's not about the page count, I suspect, as much as it is about making sure Josh's head doesn't explode.

[Joshua J. Frost]

Deussu wrote:

As long as it's not done in the fashion of Barrow of the Forgotten King, I'm good. Having run that was one of the most awful DM experiences.

The idiocy in it was to have not just stat blocks, but whole encounters packed in the end, one on each spread. There were a total of 27 combats (*NNNGHN*), and as I ran it I began to hate it, wondering if there's a story at all. Later I found out there was some pages before the combat spreads that were supposed to go between them.

Also, it was a little booklet, not a PDF. You couldn't just print the relevant pages and shuffle them in the order you desire.

Yeah, that's the "delve" format and I will never use the "delve" format. Ever.

[Joshua J. Frost]

james maissen wrote:

Is there a reason that a PDF only product is concerned overmuch with page/word count of stat blocks? It hinders the judging experience, for myself and others.

More pages isn't as easy as it sounds.

More pages = more development time
More pages = more layout time
More pages = more editing time
More pages = a LOT more work than most people think

[Joshua J. Frost]

james maissen wrote:

Draw from both as I'm seeing newbie mistakes that while well intentioned, honestly needed have ever occurred. Pathfinder Society has a very nice feel to it on one level, but it is so rough around the edges that I am leery of really investing myself in it.

Specific constructive criticisms (such as examples of "newbie" mistakes) are for more helpful to me than broad brush claims. Can you be more specific? If you like, you can always email me if you're not interested in detailing them all here. [e-mail]

[DM Jeff]

Joshua J. Frost wrote:

I'm open to the idea of storing the stat blocks in appendices in the back. I'll have to give this some more thought (and planning and mock-ups etc) before I can commit to doing it however.

Just another quick vote of approval for this. It would be a big help.

[james maissen]

Joshua J. Frost wrote:

james maissen wrote:

Is there a reason that a PDF only product is concerned overmuch with page/word count of stat blocks? It hinders the judging experience, for myself and others.

More pages isn't as easy as it sounds.

More pages = more development time
More pages = more layout time
More pages = more editing time
More pages = a LOT more work than most people think

In the case where the scenario says 'see encounter #1 for these stat blocks' you are asking the DM to flip between multiple pages to run an encounter. I would think that in the case of cut & paste that ease of play should factor into the equation here.

I mean does this flow well for you when you judge? It doesn't for me, and I strongly suspect it doesn't for a majority of your judges.

For my part I, given time, have resorted to re-writing all of the stat blocks out for a module when preparing it due to this and the 'use X but substitute Y for Z in X's stats' showing up. This is annoying for me and detracts from the time I would have been able to put towards preparing the module in other ways.

I don't see it as a good use of my time, and do believe that a module should facilitate this rather than hinder it.

As we are talking about essentially cut & pasting a copy of material with at most a minor change so that it can be located in one place I don't see it as that difficult. Perhaps I am wrong. The location doesn't need to be nested within the text as opposed to an appendix, but it should not be scattered throughout the document.

The goal of these documents should be towards minimizing judge preparation and maximizing player enjoyment. Layout and design should facilitate play rather than hinder it. Hard to understand encounters are bad, but hard to run combats due to this layout are just as bad. Editing should be done with the use of the document in mind.. in this case a judge running the module from this document.

My suggestion would be to appendicize the stat blocks and have a separate editor go over them to check for errors & make sure everything breaks down correctly. This is tedious, but those that are used to it can do so with a nice accuracy (towards this I suggest that you use something like word's hidden text to have a standardized break down for ease of the reviewer/editor). Have these appendices organized not by encounter but by tier. That way a judge running at tier 1-2 won't accidentally run an encounter using the tier 4-5 stats... as well as making it easier on the judge to flip through what he needs to run the module.

-James
PS: Josh I'll email you directly when I have the time to compose a fairly thorough email. Thank you for being so responsive on these boards, I'm sure it is both a daunting and sometimes thankless task.