In PFRPG, a necromancer gets the ability to take the feat Turn Undead or Command Undead. At first thought, that looked pretty cool to me, but now that I think about it, Command Undead is much, much less useful than Turn Undead.
Specifically, the problem is with the HD limit. First of all, PCs usually fighting undead with HD > character level, in which case Command Undead does nothing. And if you do happen to find an undead opponent with HD = character level and you manage to control it, you can't use your ability on another undead creature without losing control of the first creature.
Whereas with Turn Undead, you can happily use your ability over and over again with no worries.
Does anyone else think that Command Undead is a pretty weak feat/ability?
Does anyone else think that Command Undead is a pretty weak feat/ability?
Not really. Turn Undead lasts 1 minute. Command Undead lasts 1 day minimum, and nets you an ally. Until I saw your post, I thought Turn Undead got the hit between the two.
Does anyone else think that Command Undead is a pretty weak feat/ability?Not really. Turn Undead lasts 1 minute. Command Undead lasts 1 day minimum, and nets you an ally. Until I saw your post, I thought Turn Undead got the hit between the two.
The spell Command Undead lasts 3 days (minimum), works on level-appropriate undead (e.g. a level 3 necromancer can control a CR 2 zombie), and you can use it multiple times without losing control of previously controlled creatures. Oh, and it has no saving throw when you use it on skeletons & zombies.
So why would my necromancer choose Command Undead over Turn Undead again?
So why would my necromancer choose Command Undead over Turn Undead again?
Because you can force every Undead in a 30' radius to make a save or become your pet. [Limit of HD of course, but high chance that you'll get at least one of them.]
Also the DC scales with your level.
So why would my necromancer choose Command Undead over Turn Undead again?Because you can force every Undead in a 30' radius to make a save or become your pet. [Limit of HD of course, but high chance that you'll get at least one of them.]
Unless, of course, the undead have more HD than I have wizard levels. Or I already have a pet, in which case I'd just be throwing away my previous (weak) pet in exchange for a new (weak) pet.
Also the DC scales with your level.
And is based on Cha, not Int.
My point is that clerics have a much better way of getting a strong undead pet (Animate Dead at level 5) and wizards have a much better way of getting a strong undead pet (Command Undead at level 3). An extra way of getting a much weaker pet is not very useful, IMO.
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Actually, it's worse than you think, Hogarth: if you go by a strict reading of the RAW, a wizard gains absolutely nothing by getting Command Undead as a bonus feat.
As a standard action, you can use one of your uses of channel negative energy to enslave undead within 30 feet. Undead receive a Will save to negate the effect. The DC for this Will save is equal to 10 + 1/2 your caster level + your Charisma modifier. Undead that fail their saves fall under your control, obeying your commands to the best of their ability, as if under the effects of control undead. Intelligent undead receive a new saving throw each day to resist your command. You can control any number of undead, so long as their total Hit Dice do not exceed your cleric level. If you use channel energy in this way, it has no other effect (it does not heal or harm nearby creatures). If an undead creature is under the control of another creature, you must make an opposed Charisma check whenever your orders conflict.
Emphasis mine.
There is nothing in the wizard section or the errata that changes this part of the feat to key off your wizard level instead of cleric level.
So, a character that only takes levels of wizard (necromancer) will be able to control any number of undead, as long as their total HD don't exceed 0.
I realized this the other night when I switched over my 2nd level necromancer from Beta to PFRPG. He lost HP (we were using racial bonus in Beta), he lost ray of enfeeblement 1/day, his primary attack (grave touch) stopped doing damage, and he gained an ability that keys off a stat he wasn't built for (Charisma) and that does absolutely nothing by the RAW. Considering that I was already the least effective member of the party, I wasn't too happy.
That's gotta be a typo! I'm sure it should have said wizard level, stacking with any cleric levels, to boot. Just my guess.
Actually, it's worse than you think, Hogarth: if you go by a strict reading of the RAW, a wizard gains absolutely nothing by getting Command Undead as a bonus feat.
You can control any number of undead, so long as their total Hit Dice do not exceed your cleric level.Emphasis mine.
There is nothing in the wizard section or the errata that changes this part of the feat to key off your wizard level instead of cleric level.
Well, I was using common sense on that one. :-)
You make good points, certainly. However Command Undead spell acts like a charm, whereas the feat acts like control undead (like a dominate).
I guess I just feel that it's a lot easier to spend an action hitting lots of undead with a charm than a single undead, when you're trying to break their best saving throw (Will).
Also, I'm not sure of it, but I think we'll see more undead with fewer HD in Pathfinder - they now get 3/4 BAB instead of 1/2, and can have a high Cha to get enough hp, instead of just loading on extra HD.
Unless you're dealing with bosses or zombies (and skels at higher level), you probably have more HD than most undead around. Ghouls, wights, ghosts, spectres, shadows, mohrgs, devourers - not super high HD there.
Edit: Oh, also no spell resistance vs. channel energy.
Edit, Edit:
he lost ray of enfeeblement 1/day,
and gained a 1st level necromancy spell of his choice per day - not a loss there.
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Well, I was using common sense on that one. :-)
I will be doing the same thing in my game. However, it was just insult to injury for me - not only did my character's abilities become less effective, the only new ability he received was rendered non-functional by a typographic oversight.
That's gotta be a typo! I'm sure it should have said wizard level, stacking with any cleric levels, to boot. Just my guess.
No, not a typo. The feat assumes you are a cleric. It would be up to the necromancer ability to make the change, since it is the exception.
Interestingly, the feat sets the DC as 10+Caster Level+CHA, whereas the necromancer ability specifically changes it to be 10+Wizard Level+CHA. Two things about this bug me:
1) They already changed the way the feat works for the necromancer...it should've been easy to make the change to the HD rule while they were at it.
2) This makes the ability even worse for wizards than it was. As a cleric, if you have some effect that increases your caster level (levels in a PrC perhaps), your Command Undead DC increases also. This doesn't work for a wizard.
Well, I was using common sense on that one. :-)I will be doing the same thing in my game. However, it was just insult to injury for me - not only did my character's abilities become less effective, the only new ability he received was rendered non-functional by a typographic oversight.
Don't feel bad. My evoker lost energy ray and got a single magic missile.
All the same, some undead flunkies make good dungeon fodder. If nothing else, they can just get in the enemy's way.
You also make some good points (especially about it working like Control Undead and therefore being more useful against intelligent creatures).
I guess it just feels odd to me for a necromancy specialist to have an ability that's usable 3+Int times per day, when it seems unlikely to be used more than once or twice at best.
You make good points, certainly. However Command Undead spell acts like a charm, whereas the feat acts like control undead (like a dominate).
I guess I just feel that it's a lot easier to spend an action hitting lots of undead with a charm than a single undead, when you're trying to break their best saving throw (Will).
Also, I'm not sure of it, but I think we'll see more undead with fewer HD in Pathfinder - they now get 3/4 BAB instead of 1/2, and can have a high Cha to get enough hp, instead of just loading on extra HD.
Unless you're dealing with bosses or zombies (and skels at higher level), you probably have more HD than most undead around. Ghouls, wights, ghosts, spectres, shadows, mohrgs, devourers - not super high HD there.
Edit: Oh, also no spell resistance vs. channel energy.
I was thinking about taking this feat with my negative energy channeling cleric but wasn't sure after reading the details. I'd like to have some defense against undead but it is fairly weak. I wouldn't be using them as pets though. They'd just be used to turn against their allies (or each other) and be disposed of afterwards. The rework to undead will hopefully make it much more useful.