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The rules are somewhat unclear as to which manoeuvres can be performed ranged. Based on whether they are standard/attack or melee the list seems to be:
Bull Rush: standard - ranged Ok(!)
Disarm: melee - ranged No
Grapple: standard - Ranged Ok
Overrun: move - Ranged No
Sunder: Attack - Ranged Ok
Trip: Melee - Ranged No
Feint: Standard - Ranged Ok
Given these odd results, this needs clarification.
3e seems to have changed over the years, generally ranged is No except for Sunder which is 1/2 damage. Complete Adventurer provides feats to add range to grapple and disarm and make sunder full damage.
CMB is strength based, should ranged CMB be dex based like other ranged attacks?
Ranged CMB feats would be very useful in the PF2 book.
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The rules are somewhat unclear as to which manoeuvres can be performed ranged. Based on whether they are standard/attack or melee the list seems to be:
Bull Rush: standard - ranged Ok(!)
Disarm: melee - ranged No
Grapple: standard - Ranged Ok
Overrun: move - Ranged No
Sunder: Attack - Ranged Ok
Trip: Melee - Ranged No
Feint: Standard - Ranged OkGiven these odd results, this needs clarification.
3e seems to have changed over the years, generally ranged is No except for Sunder which is 1/2 damage. Complete Adventurer provides feats to add range to grapple and disarm and make sunder full damage.
CMB is strength based, should ranged CMB be dex based like other ranged attacks?
Ranged CMB feats would be very useful in the PF2 book.
All Combat Maneuvers are made with melee. Just because they are made using a Standard Action does not indicate that you can substitute a ranged attack for them.
Disarm, Sunder, and Trip are all made in place of a melee attack. Bull Rush and Grapple do not use weapons, they are done by either physically shoving or physically 'grappling' your opponent, neither of which can be done at range. Overrun is done as part of a move action.
In all cases, the attempts are done in melee. The only exception is Overrun, which is as part of a move.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
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That sounds reasonable, but it's odd that sunder is an attack and not a melee action unlike the others. I would suggest that needs to be errata'd to melee to clarify it's not allowing a ranged attack. This would be consistent with CMB being melee based.
I would suspect the reason for it being "attack" is due to the 3e rule allowing ranged attack, hence the need to clarify this change.
I would certainly see a need for a ranged Sunder feat and the current rule seems a little odd.
This actually came up when running Tomb of Horrors 3e conversion when a character attempted to carry the Brain in a Jar out of the Tomb and the other characters tried to stop him by breaking the jar.
That sounds reasonable, but it's odd that sunder is an attack and not a melee action unlike the others.
Huh? Did I miss something.
You can attempt to sunder an item held or worn by your opponent as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack.(emphasis added)
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That's it, it replaces a melee attack with a non-typed attack. It should read ".. as part of a melee attack action..." but it doesn't actually say that. Further, CMB does not specify melee attacks specifically, which it should.
Because this is a change from 3e it needs to be absolutely clear.
It would be helpful if the conversion guide spelled out that the CMB rules apply to melee attacks and the 3e ranged sunder is no longer available normally.
I'm looking forward to have Ranged CMB added as feats in PF2, that would be great.
Feats to let you sunder, trip and disarm at range already exist in Complete Warrior.
Other ones, such as bull-rushing, grappeling and overrunning just wouldn't work at range, since they require physical contact. You can feint all you want at range, but the foe will still see where you're moving so it's pretty much pointless.
For a smartly played marksmen, such feats can also be ivery useful. Problem with a foe who has a powreful weapon? Take out the handful of adamantine arrows (costing only a fraction of normal adamantine weapons) and sunder. Disarming or tripping can also be a useful tactic if your arrows are struggiling to overcome DR, giving the archer more chances to aid in combat.
Other ones, such as bull-rushing, grappeling and overrunning just wouldn't work at range, since they require physical contact. You can feint all you want at range, but the foe will still see where you're moving so it's pretty much pointless.
I don't see feinting only as making an opponent think you're moving left when you move right, it's also about making them think you're going for a low blow right before sticking them in the throat. As such I wouldn't have a problem with an additional feat (above and beyond Improved Feint I think) that would let you make an opponent misjudge the timing of your shot. Think of a pump fake in (American) football.
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You're right, I meant Complete Warrior, and of course "Ranged Pin" is a ranged grapple. The Ranged Sunder lets you sunder with arrows or full damage with slashing/bludgeoning which is not allowed in PF using normal CMB.
The move CMB's don't work as you say.
Given the CMB mechanic change, the feats would need a PF conversion, and it would be nice to see an official version. I'm sure we can all come up with a Houseruled version in the meantime.
Interesting that you can buy adamantine missiles that would help Sunder yet the rules prevent you from using them in that way. I hadn't spotted that.
There's a couple more things that are unclear (at least to me)
Basically, they come down to the fact that the Maneuvers don't specify which Weapons can be used to attempt them. A big reason this is important is because of Weapon Training, Focus, Enhancements and the like (weapon specific attack bonuses, as well as competency when not all characters have Imp. Unarmed (presumably capable of all Maneuvers - though even that is unclear).
In the Equipment section, the 'Trip' weapon quality could be read as disallowing non-"trip weapons" from attempting trip maneuvers. Is this the case? Or can any Weapon do this, allowing Dagger Trips (for example)?
Likewise, Over-Run or Bull-rush don't specify what weapons are used for them. I don't see what's unreasonable about knocking someone in the gut with your Quarterstaff as you Over-Run them. OTOH, some people seem to feel these are only done with Unarmed (bar special Abilities/Feats e.g. Shield Slam)... And if Grapple is distinct from Unarmed Attacks (see below) why not B-R/O-R?
There also seems to be some ambiguity re: Unarmed Attacks and Grapple.
I would ASSUME Grapple is only attemptable thru Unarmed Strike (using it's attack bonuses) though the rules don't actually say this. Grapple seems to qualify as a separate "Weapon" for Weapon Focus/ Spec (!?), which is odd given "Trip" (for example) DOESN'T appear to be treated as a separate weapon (for competency/ wpn-specific att/dmg bonuses).
If there is Weapon/Attack Modality restrictions (i.e. Unarmed:Grapple, Trip Weapons [incl. Unarmed?]:Trip) they should be spelled out in each Maneuver's description. If certain Maneuvers are to be treated distinctly from normal Melee weapon/modalities (i.e. Unarmed and Grapple separately enumerated in Wpn Spec/Focus descriptions) this should be made crystal clear (I could see how, if this is the case, Over-Run and Bull-rush would also be treated similarly 'distinctly', yet nothing in the rules suggest that to me for those Maneuvers)
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I share your confusion and will tell you how I run it, though, Paizo is very likely to have different opinions on the matter.
I see all CMs available for Unarmed use. So I allow a blanket use in that way.
For weapons I only allow modifiers to the CMB IF the weapon itself is appropriate to the maneuver. So a +5 dagger will not add anything to tripping though a +5 guisarme will.
IF you are holding the +5 dagger, that doesn't prevent you from making a maneuver. You just don't get its bonuses. So you could be wielding the dagger and trip with your legs.
This is based strictly upon the "feel" or "flavor" of the text.
I don't see anything that says it MUST be done that way. But neither do I see anything that says it MUST be done another way instead.
In all cases, the attempts are done in melee. The only exception is Overrun, which is as part of a move.
What do you mean by "done in melee" such that overrun is an exception?
Just curious. It's still a standard action (though it can be done on a charge) and seems to work just like bullrush.
Just to be clear about the Trip issue I mentioned, here's what the Trip weapon quality says:
"Trip: You can use a trip weapon to make trip attacks. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the weapon to avoid being tripped."
The first part could IMPLY that without the Trip quality, you can't make trip attacks (common sense says Unarmed Attacks would also qualify, but this isn't stated anywhere to my knowledge). If there is indeed a limit on Maneuvers re: weapon/attack modality, it needs to be clearly stated in the Maneuver description itself.
The second reading is that the first sentence is superfluous, and the Trip quality solely adds the ability to drop the weapon instead of being tripped yourself (when failing big-time). If this is the intent, removing the first sentence would be much less confusing.
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Here's my attempt to clear things up:
Normal
CMB can only be used for Melee attacks.
Existing CMB feats only apply to melee attacks.
New Feats:
Ranged CMB
Uses Dex. Instead of Str. For CMB (as per ranged attacks).
Prerequisite: Point Blank Shot.
Allows the character to use a ranged weapon to perform the manoeuvre. Weapons not specifically designed to perform the manoeuvre (e.g. Bolas and Trip) are at a -4 penalty. Ranged Grapple requires an object against which the enemy may be grappled and a suitable weapon (e.g. arrows and a wooden wall). Ranged Sunder does only ½ normal damage (unless weapon is specifically designed otherwise).
Improved Ranged CMB
Prerequisite: Ranged CMB
As Ranged CMB, removes the hit penalty and the reduced damage. Gives +2 bonus for specifically designed weapons.
Greater Ranged CMB
Prerequisite: Improved Ranged CMB
As Improved Ranged CMB, gives +2 bonus on ranged CMB attacks, stacks with Improved Ranged CMB.
Trying to avoid a feat for each manoeuvre.
Although it's somthing you're trying to avoid, I'd give a feat for each manouver. Remember that is a melee character wants to trip, disarm and sunder, he has a spend a feat for each or provoke attack's of opperunity, something a ranged character won't have to worry about.
Nethys is correct. Although a special attack or a Feat or something that lets you do trip attacks or disarm attacks or other maneuvers with ranged weapons is pretty interesting and I suspect you'll be seeing some stuff along these lines eventually.
What about bolas, James? How are those intended to work?