Negative levels: item creation problems + what if CL = 0?


Rules Questions


PF final Page 460
For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level if an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell but not higher than her own caster level.

PF final Page 562
[b]The creature is also treated as one level lower for the purpose of level-dependent variables (such as spellcasting) for each negative level possessed. Spellcasters do not lose any prepared spells or slots as a result of negative levels.

These two texts have given me some trouble.

So here are soms questions

  • What happens when a character has a CL of 0? A 4:th level Ranger or Paladin with a negativ level or a character with only on level as a spellcaster but with other class levels such as a fighter/wizard, a fighter/cleric, rogue/bard, etc.
  • Can you still cast spells with a CL of 0 and how would that affect duration or damage? Would spells like burning hands or Protection from evil or bless function at all? Would the duration of PfE be 0,5 x 1 minute or 0 x 1 minute?

  • What happens if a 7:th cleric dies and is raised? Can he still cast 4:th level spells? The text says "Spellcasters do not lose any prepared spells or slots as a result of negative levels", but how can he cast a 4:th level spell with a CL of 6?

  • How does negative levels affect item creation? What happens if a 7:th bard dies and get raised? Can he creat a wand of haste? If so, can he set the CL to 6? If yes, can a bard (or Sorcerer) set the CL to 5 too (the minimum CL a wizard can set)? At 7:th level a bard gets 3:d level spells such as haste. He can create a wand of haste using a wizard scroll of haste with cl 5, but he himself can only set the CL to 7 if he casts a stored spell. But what if he has a negativ level?


  • A character gaining negative levels can indeed have a caster level lower than the minimum caster level usually associated with a spell - up to 0; this doesn't influences his ability to prepare or cast spells, but all variables that depend on caster level would be obviously influnced.

    PRD (Glossary->Energy Drain and Negative Levels)
    "For each negative level a creature has, it takes a cumulative –1 penalty on all ability checks, attack rolls, combat maneuver checks, Combat Maneuver Defense, saving throws, and skill checks. In addition, the creature reduces its current and total hit points by 5 for each negative level it possesses. The creature is also treated as one level lower for the purpose of level-dependent variables (such as spellcasting) for each negative level possessed. Spellcasters do not lose any prepared spells or slots as a result of negative levels."

    For example, a 5th level Wizard with 1 negative level could still cast spells as a 5th-level Wizard, but since his caster level would be 4, the damage dice of a Fireball would be 4d6, the maximum range 560 ft (400 + 40x4), and so on.
    Obviously, when reaching caster level 0, all his spell would be severely impaired; no damage dice (except for a few spells like Magic Missile, Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray, Ray of Frost, Acid Splash and a few others which show a 'minimum' damage not influenced by caster level - for example, since Magic Missile allows the caster to fire 1 missile, and additional missiles for every 2 caster levels above the 1st, such a debilitating caster could still deal 1d4+1 to one of his targets), no duration for spells based exclusively on caster level (since 1h x 0 = 0), and so on.

    For Magic Item creation, this is more complicated; a 7th-level Bard which is killed and then raised by a Raise Dead would still be a 7th-level Bard, although a Bard with 2 negative levels. So, he technically could still create a Wand of Haste, but since his caster level would be only 5, he could only create a Wand with a caster level of 5, which is under the minimum caster level usually allowed for Bards.

    PRD (Magic Items->Wands):
    "The price of a wand is equal to the level of the spell × the creator’s caster level × 750 gp. If the wand has a material component cost, it is added to the base price and cost to create once for each charge (50 × material component cost). Table 15–17 gives sample prices for wands created at the lowest possible caster level for each spellcasting class. Note that some spells appear at different levels for different casters. The level of such spells depends on the caster crafting the wand."
    This is more of a GM call, IMHO - allowing to Craft the wand in such a debilitate condition could be effectively impossible, but since there is effectively no such a thing as a 'Bardic Wand of Haste' or a 'Sorcererous Wand of Haste', maybe a GM could allow it, at least if the caster level of the item is still into the range of the lowest possible caster level for such an item (in this case, 5th).

    As a final note, please note that such penalties are, effectively, penalties and not effective reductions to the abilities/ saves/ whatsoever of the character. A 7th-level Fighter with 2 negative levels would still have a full attack of +7/+2 (and so, two attacks), but all attacks will have a -2 penalty to the attack roll (much like a Strength penalty, not a BaB loss).


    Thank you for your answer.
    I don't think players plan on getting killed so the can creat cheaper wands. As for CL the text says:

    the creator can set the caster level if an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell

    So if
    A) the Bard can cast Haste and
    B) the Bard's CL is 5 due to negative levels and
    C) the bard (or someone else) has craft wand he should be able to create a wand of haste with CL 5.
    I'm I Right?
    An easier way would be to buy a scroll of haste cl 5 from a wizard.

    I think you are right in all your conclusions but I hope James or Jason would give us some feedback.

    As for abusing the rules. Sure if a character gets a temporary negative level he could he argue that he could choose to fail his save, so he can create cheaper wand. I don't think you could choose to fail a save (unless it's a reflexsave).

    There are other ways to use craft wand that are close to abuse.
    Since two or more characters cooperate to create an item a Cleric with craft wand and a paladin with lesser resturataion can together creat a wand of Lesser Restoration with a spell level of 1 and a CL of 1.
    Likewise can a the same cleric and a ranger can create a wand of Resist Energy with a spell level of 1 and a CL of 1.


    So...technically...assuming these rules interpretations are accepted in a game, it would be possible for a 5th level wizard with the Craft Wand feat and 4 negative levels to make a wand of fireball at 1st caster level. It would cost 1,125 gp and 2 days to make and be able to spit out 50 1d6 fireballs with a maximum range of 440'. At 2,250 gp it would be the cheapest fireball wand in existence. And also the least effective.


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    Creating Magic items has special requirements: "For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell but not higher than her own caster level."

    It seems to me that if, due to negative levels, you can't meet those requirements, you can't make the item, even if you are able to cast the spell (since negative levels don't remove slots.)

    If this isn't true, that a Bard with 2 negative levels could make a CL 4 haste wand for example, then they could also make a CL 5 haste wand without the negative levels. If CL 5 is valid for a bard making the item, then it is always valid, and you can choose to set it lower as you wish. The table of wand prices by class strongly implies that this is not the case.

    (Honestly, I think a wand should be a wand, and a Bard should be able to make a CL 5 haste wand just like a wizard, but that is neither here nor there)


    Note that you don't have to lose caster levels to be able to make an item with a lower caster level. You can just decide to do it. A 15th level character can simply decide to make items with caster level 1 - for example, he could brew a level 1 potion of Cure Light Wounds at caster level 1. It would heal 1d8+1 HP and cost 25gp to make, sell for 50gp. No problem.

    But not all items of all spells can be made at CL1 - each type of item has its own rule about whether this is possible. Wand of Fireball is an example; it must be CL5 or higher, as DJ pointed out.

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