So we can all download free .pdf files of the AP Players' Guides (for example, the Council of Thieves Players Guide is a free .pdf download here at Paizo).
But a couple of my friends don't have computers. Yeah, I know, it's 2009 right? But it's true.
So, for those guys, I would like to print out my downloaded .pdf and give them a copy. I was hoping the .pdf might have text like "permission to copy this document is granted" or some such stuff, but I don't see anything like that anywhere in it.
I do see that it is copyrighted, and I see the usual stuff about Open Content and Product Identity.
So, do we or do we not have permission to print this file? Can we take it to a copy store and have them print and bind a couple copies for our gaming group? Will they object because of the copyright? If so, is there some place I can point them to that shows them it's OK to print this file?
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I would feel uncomfortable giving copies to my friends. If they want copies of the PDF they can have you create an account for them, and order a PDF for them (paying you back).
Then you can go to the store and print it out and give them their own copy. It's like the record industry thing. You could give them a copy of the PDF if you then remove the PDF on your computer. You could print out a copy and let them use it at the game but keep it in your possession otherwise and still hold on to you PDF.
Really, it's a lousy $10, they can pop for their own copy and do it legally.
Or if you consider how much it will cost for copies to be printed just wait for the hardback to be available again and buy those.
Really, it's a lousy $10, they can pop for their own copy and do it legally.
Or if you consider how much it will cost for copies to be printed just wait for the hardback to be available again and buy those.
Hmm, Krome,
I think he was talking about the free PDFs that are available online. I believe that he was asking because a few of his players have no computers.
I don't think he was talking about the core rules.
Yep yep, I'm only talking about the free .pdf.
Everyone in the group has a hard copy of the rulebook anyway.
But we're about to start a CoT campaign, and I'd like everyone to read the Players Guide and bring a pregenerated character, complete with Chelaxian/Wescrani background and an appropriate campaign trait. But some of my players have no way to download that free .pdf.
I think what I'll do is simply copy/paste the text into a .txt file and print that for them, although I'm not sure if that's a violation of the copyright/OGL or not.
Yep yep, I'm only talking about the free .pdf.
Everyone in the group has a hard copy of the rulebook anyway.
But we're about to start a CoT campaign, and I'd like everyone to read the Players Guide and bring a pregenerated character, complete with Chelaxian/Wescrani background and an appropriate campaign trait. But some of my players have no way to download that free .pdf.
I think what I'll do is simply copy/paste the text into a .txt file and print that for them, although I'm not sure if that's a violation of the copyright/OGL or not.
Considering it is free, I think it would be fine to print it out and bind it. I think it'd only be a violation of copyright if you charged for it.
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For free PDFs... we're cool with you printing out as many copies as you want. Just don't sell the printouts! :-)
Just out of curiosity, does that include charging for the actual printing costs, legally speaking. Lets say I went to a print store and made 10 copies of, the conversion guide, and each cost me $1. Than I sell those ten for $1 each.
If you are "being paid back for printing costs", I don't think that's the same thing as "charging" for something. An agreement that goes like "I'll print it out for you if you can pay me back for the printing fees." would be acceptable to me.
The punk rock 'zine trade does it this way, though there's no actual copyrights there, in fact, usually anti-copyrights, and sometimes creative commons.
Creative Director
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Just out of curiosity, does that include charging for the actual printing costs, legally speaking. Lets say I went to a print store and made 10 copies of, the conversion guide, and each cost me $1. Than I sell those ten for $1 each.For free PDFs... we're cool with you printing out as many copies as you want. Just don't sell the printouts! :-)
Actually, yeah. It's illegal to sell copyrighted works that you don't hold the copyright for, and that includes free products like the Player's Guide. As far as I understand things, at least. It's certainly a murky part of the law, but even though you might not be making a direct profit off of selling someone else's free product, you can still benefit by drawing traffic through your venue and thus increase your gain by coasting on someone else's copyright. The best and safest route is to not charge any money for it at all, even though getting more copies out there of the free PDF stuff is basically free advertising for Paizo.
For free PDFs... we're cool with you printing out as many copies as you want. Just don't sell the printouts! :-)
But printing out multiple copies of the free Player's Guide PDFs for your group is pretty much what we expect GMs to do anyway. That's why we made them free, after all.
Thanks, James.
That clears it right up.
Only one problem remains - getting my local printer to believe it.
Any chance you guys might want to put something in writing in the .pdf, something to the effect that you give permission for us to download and print the file?
I suppose I can try to get the print shop employee to come here and read this forum, but ultimately having written permission right there in the document might be easier.
For free PDFs... we're cool with you printing out as many copies as you want. Just don't sell the printouts! :-)
But printing out multiple copies of the free Player's Guide PDFs for your group is pretty much what we expect GMs to do anyway. That's why we made them free, after all.
Thanks, James.
That clears it right up.
Only one problem remains - getting my local printer to believe it.
Any chance you guys might want to put something in writing in the .pdf, something to the effect that you give permission for us to download and print the file?
I suppose I can try to get the print shop employee to come here and read this forum, but ultimately having written permission right there in the document might be easier.
Like how character sheets invariably have in small print at the bottom "Permission is granted to photocopy this document for personal use only"?
Yeah, that would be perfect.
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Actually, yeah. It's illegal to sell copyrighted works that you don't hold the copyright for, and that includes free products like the Player's Guide. As far as I understand things, at least. It's certainly a murky part of the law, but even though you might not be making a direct profit off of selling someone else's free product, you can still benefit by drawing traffic through your venue and thus increase your gain by coasting on someone else's copyright. The best and safest route is to not charge any money for it at all, even though getting more copies out there of the free PDF stuff is basically free advertising for Paizo.
A lot of game stores I go to have a big pile of printed out pathfinder character sheets. Is that illegal too? If so, then I know quite a few stores who are in trouble (particularly the ones who make a profit off those character sheets)
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A lot of game stores I go to have a big pile of printed out pathfinder character sheets. Is that illegal too? If so, then I know quite a few stores who are in trouble (particularly the ones who make a profit off those character sheets)
I would argue this type of usage is not "personal use" as in "permission granted . . . for personal use only." If I were counselling a store, I would strongly advise them not to even make a pile of character sheets available, let alone charge for them -- even just to recoup printing costs, and especially not for profit. I don't see how that could fall under fair use.
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Actually, yeah. It's illegal to sell copyrighted works that you don't hold the copyright for, and that includes free products like the Player's Guide. As far as I understand things, at least. It's certainly a murky part of the law, but even though you might not be making a direct profit off of selling someone else's free product, you can still benefit by drawing traffic through your venue and thus increase your gain by coasting on someone else's copyright. The best and safest route is to not charge any money for it at all, even though getting more copies out there of the free PDF stuff is basically free advertising for Paizo.
My understanding (mainly related to software) is that it is illegal to reproduce any copyrighted work without an explicit license to do so. That includes the free downloads. It's just the damages that Paizo could claim would be small/zero.
I've found this site informative.
Can I also request a little bit of text on the free stuff that says something like "You may print all or part of this document. You may not sell copies in any form." It would help with copy shops that stick directly to the law. A line about recouping actual printing costs when giving copies away would be a bonus.
Reading the exact text of the Council of Thieves Players Guide, reproduction of parts not designated as Open Content is directly forbidden without written permission. It certainly contains 'locations' and hence has parts which are not Open and therefore it is currently illegal to print in its entirety even for personal use. Technically it's even illegal to make a backup, although I believe that there is precedence that the copy made in RAM when you open a PDF from disk is allowed.
I completely understand if life is too short for Paizo to jump through all of the legal hoops needed to update the legalese in these things, but it could be useful for some of us. Thinking about it, 'in writing' would be covered by a page we could print from the website and take along that gives permission to print copies of the PDF, so the text in the PDF would not need to change,
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My understanding (mainly related to software) is that it is illegal to reproduce any copyrighted work without an explicit license to do so. That includes the free downloads. It's just the damages that Paizo could claim would be small/zero.
[...]
Reading the exact text of the Council of Thieves Players Guide, reproduction of parts not designated as Open Content is directly forbidden without written permission. It certainly contains 'locations' and hence has parts which are not Open and therefore it is currently illegal to print in its entirety even for personal use. Technically it's even illegal to make a backup, although I believe that there is precedence that the copy made in RAM when you open a PDF from disk is allowed.
That's basically right -- it's illegal to reproduce copyrighted work without permission. One exception is what's known as the fair use doctrine. There are a number of factors that inform a decision as to whether a particular use qualifies as fair use; ultimately it's a balancing test. If you're making money off the use (like in the example of stores charging for character sheets), that weighs against a finding of fair use. Other factors include, for example, how much of the work you're using.
Actual damages might be small/zero, but there could be statutory damages, which can be from $750-$30k per work, at the court's discretion (recall the recent music downloading case, where a woman was found liable for almost $2 million for 24 songs).
As far as RAM copies are concerned, that exception applies for software because it's necessary to make a copy of the software in order to execute it in a computer. I don't specifically recall any cases on point, but I would imagine that by the same logic, the same exception would apply for the RAM copy of a PDF you're opening from a disk.
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Hi All -
OK, so I realize that this started out about talking about the free players guides.
But lets expand this, which will likely cover the free players guides as well.
I purchased the Core Rulebook from Paizo and was given the free PDF. Because I'm the only subscriber and two of our players didn't get the Core Rulebook, I took my copy to one of my local (non-Kinko's because they're expensive) printers and had it printed out and bound (it does have the errata and I added in the traits).
This printed version stays with me, heck half the time I would rather carry this around than my Core Rulebook. I'm one of those people that writes all over my books and the minute errata was released I'd already done that to my book. However, the ease of opening the printed book as well as lack of concern for its well being make it much more usable.
Some background on copyright and printing of digital mediums:
Facts are not copyrightable, thus posting the following is not an abuse of copyright by the holder from the book - The Illustrated Book of Copyright - under fair use pg 190:
Fair use is the "final hurdle that copyright owners must pass before enforcing rights against someone who copies."
"...the term 'fair use' is not defined, it is fleshed out by the following statutory 'factors'"
'The fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means...for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is fair use factors to be considered shall include -"
"1- the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
2- the nature of the copyrighted work;
3- the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
4- the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work."
I'm using my printed digital copy of a print book I own. I have purchased the digital as well as the printed versions of the source materials. Because this is using Digital Media Rights, this could/should fall under the DMCA - but I do know almost nothing about this aspect and whether or not printing a legally purchased pdf is violating this aspect.
However, utilizing the 'fair use' aspect of copyright, I would state that you are able to print and bind a book of a digital document that you own (unless said digital document states with its copyright notice that you own the rights to the digital aspect of the 'source material' only and printing the book as a whole or in part violates said digital rights of the owner). I'd find this to be rather draconian, especially since this is part of the reason that I purchased the Core Rulebook as a subscription - so that I could get the PDF. I also print out whole sections of the modules that I'm running. I'm running Second Darkness and I've printed out the entire set, taking out the parts that are not relevant to the actual adventure, this way I keep my actual copies nice and protected.
Lastly in this regard, I could (if lawyers and money that I don't have where involved) state that I've printed my Core Rulebook as a teaching aid. I'm using this book to help my players that don't have the book follow along. This certainly would work with the aspect of printing the Players Guides - and as James Jacobs stated above is part of the intent of giving the Players Guides away for free.
However, until Paizo and any other company that sells PDF's states clearly and in plain 13 year-old understandable language about whether or not a person may print a PDF for their own use (as part of the digital document) we will run into this topic many times.
I suppose even if someone from the company stated and quoted from their lawyers the case for or against printing of PDF materials this might clear up some aspects. But a statement from James Jacobs or other official that doesn't clearly state the case for or against, but is more of a personal belief doesn't clearly help and may in fact hinder the entire process.
Because of the nature of RPG's, companies like Paizo and RPG Now should also state the limit of trade with said printed books (of course, if they approve of such). Can I allow one of my players to borrow my "printed copy" of the Core Rulebook (by borrow I mean take home with him), much like I can allow him to borrow my 'real' Core Rulebook (by 'real' I of course mean the version as printed by Paizo and purchased by me). From what I've been told by used bookstores, they don't buy printed books - even college coursework, because they are unsure if they are violating copyrighted works by doing so (since they cannot guarantee that the person selling the printed version has also deleted the digital version).
Using the logic behind used bookstores, I'd say that you can print a PDF document that you own - in whole or in part. By 'fair use' the options are not clear enough today to necessarily hold up in court. The U.S. Congress has yet to clear this up, typically because copyright laws in a case like this has to go to court and up the chain before it gets recognized as an issue. Additionally the Congress has used the DMCA to act as a copyright aspect, however, that has been mostly related to software and DVD aspects, and very little if any has been done in regards to using different mediums (digital and printed) of the same media (Core Rulebook).
As someone that uses copyright aspects in my previous job (as a Marketing Coordinator and copy editor) I've had to do research and that's where I've gained some of this. There are several copyright lawyers on ENWorld and Circvs Maximvs that have posted their thoughts, however I do not know their user names or the locations of many of their posts which might help strengthen or deflate the arguments. But until each company produces a printing guideline of their digital medium of the printed medium, we will get into issues such as these.
Be Well. Be Well Printed.
Theocrat Issak
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Facts are not copyrightable, thus posting the following is not an abuse of copyright by the holder from the book - The Illustrated Book of Copyright - under fair use pg 190:
If I recall correctly, whether facts are copyrightable differs between countries. In addition, although the excerpt you make is a statement of legal facts, the 'creative' expression of those facts with supporting explanation by the author may render the exact wording copyrightable. Your excerpt there is however probably covered under the provisions for small verbatim excerpts to be reproduced for the purposes of comment or scholarly discussion.
I think that the wording on the PDFs that reproduction is forbidden probably excludes fair-use provisions for printing the PDF, even if you 'own' it. Lending the copy of a PDF that you printed would be treated as 'distribution' under copyright law and that tends to usher in a much harsher spectrum of punishments, even in countries where copying for personal use is allowed.
Note that I'm not a lawyer though.
I'd intended to bring up printing all or parts of the RPG pdf later after we received any comments on the free PDFs as I am also interested in that. At present, I'm collating and printing reference material from the PRD rather than from the PDF. Down the line, what I'd like to be able to do is buy purely in PDF format (this is presuming that Paizo gets the same profit from a PDF sale as a physical sale; if not, then subscribe and donate the physical copy to a good cause rather than having it shipped) and then print my own copy. This is so I can get it ringbound and have it lie flat on the table, doodle on it, add errata, etc.
Since Paizo has customers from many different jurisdictions, a simple statement of what is and is not allowed would be helpful.
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Chief Technical Officer
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We're not going to be adding a blanket statement to the PDFs we sell, because each of our many PDF publishers may have their own particular take on it, and that may even vary from product to product by the same publisher. In general, you should contact the publisher directly with questions like this.
As far as Paizo's own PDFs go, we're okay with purchasers printing one copy for personal use only.
(And if you have to ask whether a particular action is covered under "personal use," odds are good that the answer is "no, it isn't.")