Looking for confirmation on Death and Dying rules for Monsters/NPC's
I have been running Campaigns as a DM for many years and have always used the ruling that when a monster reaches 0 or less hit points it is dead. Period. But, a player within our group is stating that death and dying rules apply for all monster/NPC just as it would for a character.
I have tried to locate some "official" rule or writing in any of the D&D books or websites without success. Is this an in-house type of ruling by individual DM's, an official rule or am just I wrong?
Any replies would be appreciated!!!
Well considering there isn't a separate section that states NPC's and monsters are treated differently then they are treated the same as PC's.
Consider that the PC's might want to take an NPC alive, but that NPC isn't going to go willingly for whatever reason. Now as long as the NPC has at least 1 hp he can put up as much of a struggle as he could have with full hp. So if the PC's want to take him it's either nonlethal, or knock him to the negatives. Since they don't know exactly when the negatives are reached unless he falls over, it would be a bit unfair to go "Oops, that's zero, he's dead, to bad you fail." Especially when they might be use (depending on how they play and you DM) to hitting the negatives and getting back up after a little healing without a raise dead spell.
At -1, they're unconscious, at which point they won't play any further role in the battle unless the PC's particularly want them to or one of their allies has healing of some form.
Generally, I just leave their "corpse" in the square that they fell.
Generally, I just leave their "corpse" in the square that they fell.
I usually keep the fallen mooks littering the mat and make stabilization checks for them. Once in a while they'll make it, and it's surprisingly common for the PCs to not check for a pulse (or ensure the lack of one), which creates a good platform from which to launch a revenge plot a few levels later. Surviving losers get XP too, after all...
I have never seen a rule that states that monsters and NPCs are dead once they reach 0 or negative HP (that is less than their Con).
I keep track of the NPC HP totals, and for those that fall, I will usually make stabilization checks (roll a bunch of d10s, line them up with my NPC list, only "0" stabilizes).
It becomes more important when the PCs are trying to keep some NPCs alive, or when positive energy is being channeled (which has been a nasty surprise a few times to my players ...evil GM grin), or when the PCs don't confirm their kills (as mentioned above, returning NPCs can be fun -either later in the same adventure or later revenge).
Having living, breathing NPCs can make a nice moral dilema for PCs, depending on what is going on in the campaign. What do you do with those hurt bandits, far from civilization, while you are on a time sensitive mission? Execute them for banditry? Leave them helpless (from wounds or bindings) and hope to be able to come back before something else finishes them off or rescues them? Free them with only a dagger? etc..
Well, I just found a reference for Monster Death & Dying Rules from an interesting source - The 2005 version of Dungeons & Dragons for Dummies. Go figure!
On page 78 under the Death and Dying section it clearly states, and I quote "When a monster's hit points are reduced to 0 it is dead and defeated"
IMHO the character is naturally the Hero of the story. The monster is there to slay. Now agreed, for dramatic effect the arch enemy NPC may survive or "linger" on after a grievous wound but it should not be the norm. My thought is that it should be the DM's discretion or part of the story line where this may happen. I just don’t feel like having to roll a D% for every lowly goblin the players may have defeated to see if they stabilize or not.
And, of course, surely Dungeons & Dragons for Dummies could not be wrong......
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Constructs and Undead die when they reach 0 hp or less.
Otherwise foes bleed out like anybody else, which gives time for enemy clerics and druids to heal up their fallen allies for round two. There's a great moment when the PCs realise that the enemy they dropped the round previous is back and wants revenge against the guy that just dropped him.
My players now tend to take the time to Coup de Grace when they know an enemy divine caster is about.
I use minus Con scores for PC's and minus 10 for monster [but not Undead or Constructs].
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Quite simply, unless Paizo clarifies somewhere, you'll want to make a house rule so that you're treating NPCs and monsters consistently. In the PFRPCR, pg. 566, this is *all* we know about the "dying" condition:
"Dying: A dying creature is unconscious and near death. Creatures that have negative hit points and have not stabilized are dying. A dying creature can take no actions. On the character’s next turn, after being reduced to negative hit points (but not dead), and on all subsequent turns, the character must make a DC 10 Constitution check to become stable. The character takes a penalty on this roll equal to his negative hit point total. A character that is stable does not need to make this check. A natural 20 on this check is an automatic success. If the character fails this check, he loses 1 hit point. If a dying creature has an amount of negative hit points equal to its Constitution score, it dies."
It doesn't help that it begins by using the term "creature" and then continues on by using the word "character."
For my own campaign, I initially used the "dying" rules for creatures that had the physiology to plausibly support the condition. Per the rules, undeads, constructs, oozes, plants, etc., do not support the condition and are destroyed upon reaching 0 hit points. What I quickly found was that the PCs were constantly stabilizing every semi-intelligent thing they came in contact with, in order to pump them for more information. This got tiring and really slowed down game play. Moreover, I thought this decision should have some real impact in terms of alignment, handling of the prisoners, etc. I finally developed the following house rule to deal with "dying" NPCs and monsters:
"DEATH AND DYING (MONSTERS AND NPCS)
This house rule is born out of several facets of the game, including our group’s “style.” First and foremost, the spirit of the “dying” condition, and arguably the very letter of the law, and whether or not someone is stabilized, is designed to ensure that characters are not so easily killed, and that death can be cheated by PCs, especially at lower levels. Pathfinder has taken this concept to a more profound height over the 3.5 rules, by indicating that characters don’t die until their negative hit points equals their Constitution (rather than -10). See pg. 189 - 191 of the PFCR for clarification on how Pathfinder handles the dying condition. Pay close attention to the language used...”your hit points” and “you are dying” and “When your character’s current hit points...” The point is, the dying condition exists to reduce the chance of character death. Nowhere does it say the same rules apply to monsters and the DM’s NPCs.
The group has exhibited a strong tendency to beat bad guys to within a nanometer of their very lives, only to then bring them back in order to pump them for information. This characteristically nefarious behavior has several consequences on the game, not the least of which is the looming threat to the alignments of everyone involved. It is tantamount to torture, and most of your gods will frown on this. Quickly dispatching an evil foe is one thing. Toying with them and tormenting them is another matter altogether. Furthermore, this tendency slows down game play when every target becomes a potential information source (hint: most aren’t).
The rules are clear about hit points for several creature types: Undead, Constructs, Oozes, and the like are simply vanquished when they reach 0 hit points. Undead are destroyed (or, in the case of incorporeal entities such as ghosts, they vanish, only to return a few days later), Constructs are damaged so severely that they simply cease to function, and Oozes, plants, fungi, etc.,...well, no point in trying to resuscitate them anyway.
It is hereby established that any Non Player Character, regardless of type, simply expires upon reaching 0 hit points or less. The DM may make exceptions to this rule in order to drive a particular event or story element, but in most cases, when you stab something in the face with a sword, or puncture its heart with an arrow, whether human or otherwise, it dies when its hit points run out.
Why, you ask? Other than the reasons given above, the DM finds the entire notion of waging an all out attack with lethal weapons on a creature with the intent of “keeping it alive” rather ludicrous. Combatants in the modern world use “deadly force” with the intent to cause one condition: death. Naturally, some targets don’t die in the real world, but that is where the similarity between the real world and game world ends. Hit Points are an arbitrary system. You either have some and you can keep going, or your run out and you’re squished. The desire to apply lethal force to the body of an opponent, only to then exhibit the desire to rush over and bandage their wounds and bring them back to life (even with valuable magic) is well outside of this arbitrary system.
However, none of this is to say that humanoids and other creatures with natural physiology cannot be spared the icy grip of death. In short, this rule doesn’t take away the character’s capacity to “take prisoners.” The point of this rule is make sure that if the character(s) mean to take someone alive, they must take the necessary steps to accomplish this task. Using only nonlethal damage (or nonlethal damage with a very limited application of lethal force), using magic to capture, enthrall, or isolate targets, using gear (such as nets) to entrap them, and using combat maneuvers such as grapple to pin and hog-tie them are all encouraged. Be judicious about who you are capturing, and why you feel that action is necessary. Be prepared to determine how that prisoner will be dealt with, to whom they will be turned over, etc.
This rule may be expounded upon if the party decides to only carry saps and nets from here on out, or if the party consistently uses heavy lethal force until the last hit point or two, when the opponent is lightly kicked in the head to ensure the smidgen of nonlethal damage always knocks them unconscious. Chances are, bad guys treated this way will consistently expire, coughing up one last gobbet of blood and cursing your very name for 7 generations before shoving off this mortal coil."
The rules are pretty clear, actually. Since there is no rule that states monsters automatically die when they reach 0 hit points, they don't.
Plus, there would be no reason for the statements saying "immediately destroyed when reduced to 0 hit points" in the Construct type information and the Undead type information if that was the regular rule.
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The rules are pretty clear, actually. Since there is no rule that states monsters automatically die when they reach 0 hit points, they don't.
Plus, there would be no reason for the statements saying "immediately destroyed when reduced to 0 hit points" in the Construct type information and the Undead type information if that was the regular rule.
Indeed. I don't disagree with that position, and followed the dying rules to the letter when we first started playing. Perhaps the wording in the House Rule isn't the best, but the rule remains at our table. It was born mostly out of the situation, and I felt that if characters really had the intention of taking prisoners, they should behave as such. Constantly charging into a battle with swords, bows, and spells, only to then revive the bad guys with the intent of questioning them got really tiring. What the long-winded house rule is really saying is, "If you mean to take bad guys alive, then work on taking them alive. If you mean to shoot and stab bad guys, then prepare for them to be dead when the dust settles."
The bigger picture here is that many game rules are open to interpretation. Ultimately, whatever that rule means (or fails to describe clearly) becomes a matter of the GM's judgement. In fact, any rule, no matter how clearly stated or obscurely worded is ultimately decided upon by the GM. My intent was to add to the discussion with 'variants' and to demonstrate what I found to work for our group.
Maybe it's just me, but your house rule reads as very abrasive and hostile.
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Maybe it's just me, but your house rule reads as very abrasive and hostile.
I thought the same thing after Are's response. After some more internal deliberation and page-flipping, I modified it. Then, after some more thought, removed it altogether. There are other ways to handle character actions, and I'll pursue those. I realized that the problem was not so much with the death/dying rules, as it was with the behavior of the group, and the things that bothered me about it. Therefore, there are more appropriate "in-game" tools at my disposal which allow me to use the rules as they stand. Hero points, alignment considerations, XP adjustments, role playing NPC reactions, etc., are all at my disposal - each a better method of handling "problem situations."
I'm glad I posted about this situation here - the input has forced me to reconsider my poor decision and change in a more appropriate direction.
This sounds resolved, but caught my eye becasue the same issue came up in a game I was in, and I wanted to mention the specific cites in the core rules:
Creature: A creature is an active participant in the story or world. This includes PCs, NPCs, and monsters.
so monsters are creatures
Hit Points (hp): ...... When a creature's hit points drop below 0, it becomes unconscious. When a creature's hit points reach a negative total equal to its Constitution score, it dies.
so any creature (including monsters) is alive until it's negative = to it's con. As you note, some monsters are specific exceptions like many undead and constructs, per their race traits in the bestiary.
FWIW - I think you're on the right path applying the rules on Alignment and such rather than houseruling to try to alter player behavior. If they're routeinly bringing back prisoners just to interrogate them and kill them later after they've served their purpose, that could mean the PCs are Evil, or at least will get a rep for being Evil. It's cirtainly merciless, that's for sure.
On the other hand - keep in mind that 'the hero gaining information from one of the villian's defeated henchmen right before he conveniently succums to his wounds' IS a trope that happens in movies all the time, and these games are more designed to simulate movie & book reality than real reality. (as for how far people go in real reality to keep prisoners alive for interrogation, I'll refer you to Gitmo...)
If their ability to make 'em talk is giving too much away, The Bosses would know that minion capture and interrogation is a threat, so would protect themselves against it. You can make the henchmen not know very much, and tell the PCs flat out, "My boss never let me know that, fearing we'd be captured."
It's also a common trope for the hechman who may actually know something important to bite the poison capsule in their tooth to avoid being taken alive - this is why.
Another option, is that if the BBEGs know that their minions may be interrogated, have them deliberately feed them false information.
If it is a town adventure, have them tell their minions that "xxx", pillar of the community, is actually part of the evil network. Have the players chase after false clues, falsely accuse someone (to the possible ruin of their reputations), waste time, etc..
If it is in a dungeon, have the minions believe that "xxx" passage/key sequence/etc.. is the way to safely bypass the traps, but it actually sets them off.