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Under the Perform skill it states that a Bard must have a minimum number of ranks to use his Bardic Performance abilities.
No where in the description of Bardic Performance are required ranks mentioned.
So the question is, should the text of the Perform skill be changed or should required ranks be added into the Bardic Performance requirements?
I would hope that skill ranks are required and in different skills, either skills for visual components or audible components. Thus requiring a bard to have ranks in two different Perform skills to use an effect that has audible and visual components.
I am aware of how this worked in 3.5, I am looking of a clarification for PFRPG.
Actually, the most recent version of the text reads as follows:
A bard must have ranks in specific Perform categories to use some of his Bardic Performance abilities.
The text doesn't have any mention of a minimum number of ranks. I believe this is in reference to abilities such as countersong, which function based on the results of one or more skill checks:
Countersong (Su): At 1st level, a bard learns to counter magic effects that depend on sound (but not spells that have verbal components). Each round of the countersong he makes a Perform (keyboard, percussion, wind, string, or sing) skill check. Any creature within 30 feet of the bard (including the bard himself) that is affected by a sonic or language-dependent magical attack may use the bard's Perform check result in place of its saving throw if, after the saving throw is rolled, the Perform check result proves to be higher. If a creature within range of the countersong is already under the effect of a noninstantaneous sonic or language-dependent magical attack, it gains another saving throw against the effect each round it hears the countersong, but it must use the bard's Perform skill check result for the save. Countersong does not work on effects that don't allow saves. Countersong relies on audible components.
EDIT: The minimum number of ranks wording was in the first print run of the book, though I imagine it was nothing more than one of several holdovers from 3.5 that simply weren't noticed before being sent to the printer.
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Thanks HA that lets me look at the issue another way. Only the Bardic Performance effects of Countersong and Distraction depend on actual Skills checks, and the skills used Sing, String, etc. are specifically defined in the effects description.
So there are no “ranks required” even for these two effects since Perform can be used untrained and the DCs for all other Bardic music effects are not based on the Perform skill.
Does this mean that a player could have a Bard PC with no ranks in Perform and just be bad at Countersong and Distraction and make no use of Versatile Performance?; suffering no other drawbacks from the lack of ranks in the Perform skill?
I ask this for clarification reasons only. I will have some player try this eventually if it is not addressed in the Errata.
Thanks HA that lets me look at the issue another way. Only the Bardic Performance effects of Countersong and Distraction depend on actual Skills checks, and the skills used Sing, String, etc. are specifically defined in the effects description.
So there are no “ranks required” even for these two effects since Perform can be used untrained and the DCs for all other Bardic music effects are not based on the Perform skill.
Does this mean that a player could have a Bard PC with no ranks in Perform and just be bad at Countersong and Distraction and make no use of Versatile Performance?; suffering no other drawbacks from the lack of ranks in the Perform skill?
I ask this for clarification reasons only. I will have some player try this eventually if it is not addressed in the Errata.
You must have at least one rank in a perform skill to use that perform type for a bardic music effect. However, if you don't not care about countersong/distraction saves or versatile performance options, there is no need to take more than one rank in a perform skill. That being said, given the two for one nature of versatile performance it is hard to imagine a bard not wanting to put multiple ranks in at least one if not two perform types.
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You must have at least one rank in a perform skill to use that perform type for a bardic music effect. However, if you don't not care about countersong/distraction saves or versatile performance options, there is no need to take more than one rank in a perform skill. That being said, given the two for one nature of versatile performance it is hard to imagine a bard not wanting to put multiple ranks in at least one if not two perform types.Thanks HA that lets me look at the issue another way. Only the Bardic Performance effects of Countersong and Distraction depend on actual Skills checks, and the skills used Sing, String, etc. are specifically defined in the effects description.
So there are no “ranks required” even for these two effects since Perform can be used untrained and the DCs for all other Bardic music effects are not based on the Perform skill.
Does this mean that a player could have a Bard PC with no ranks in Perform and just be bad at Countersong and Distraction and make no use of Versatile Performance?; suffering no other drawbacks from the lack of ranks in the Perform skill?
I ask this for clarification reasons only. I will have some player try this eventually if it is not addressed in the Errata.
That's pretty much the long and short of it. Either you use versatile performance, or you don't. Either way it doesn't have any effect on bardic Performance beyond the normal.
This is a likely interpretation. Something is either left out or left in by accident either way it seems.
For anyone who wants to require ranks in the Perform skill (ala 3rd edition), the requirement conversion would simply be Ranks = the level the ability is gained at (including additional targets if applicable).
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This is a likely interpretation. Something is either left out or left in by accident either way it seems.
For anyone who wants to require ranks in the Perform skill (ala 3rd edition), the requirement conversion would simply be Ranks = the level the ability is gained at (including additional targets if applicable).
That is my plan, Ranks equal to Level requirement.
I am really trying to keep the size of my house rules down so hopefully a clarification will make it into the errata.
For whatever reason players tend to preceive house rules as a way to limit thier particular character concept even when said house rule has been around before they even joined the game.
Andrew I find keeping a typed list works wonders in that situation. You can point to the list and go, "Look it's been that way for a while. It's nothing new, I didn't just make it up, and it is on The List."
Always tell players before you add to The List and try and make sure a copy is available for each player too (so if they think of something while at home they can check the list before working on it).
Personally I kind of like it without the need for ranks in a skill. No one else has to spend for their class abilities, and I don't like the thought that the bard has to either.
After all with versatile performer there already is a good reason to max out your performance skills.
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Personally I kind of like it without the need for ranks in a skill. No one else has to spend for their class abilities, and I don't like the thought that the bard has to either.After all with versatile performer there already is a good reason to max out your performance skills.
One of my thoughts was that the requirement was left out on purpose to avoid the "skill tax" you are referring to and Versatile Performer was designed to make sure ranks in Perform were spent anyway.
But some of my players...ahhh those crazy players...can't say much else.
My list of house rules only works on 2 of 5 players, the others always look dumbfounded when I or another player point out anything from the house rules.
Thanks for the advice anyway.
Yeah you get that sometimes. I could see a few instances where you could have a Bard with no performance skills and still be inspiring people and what not (especially at lower levels when they might be going for the "untrained hero" route).
Overall I think it was left out on purpose.
You must have at least one rank in a perform skill to use that perform type for a bardic music effect.
Anyone got a source on this? Because I don't see it. Not even for countersong and distraction: Perform can be used untrained.