Luck blade still broken?

[Boggle]

One thing that could have been corrected i think is the luck blade on page 474

its still only 22060 gp for an item with no wishes but a chance to re - roll a potential failed save.

I always thought this item was way to cheap any ideas of what would be a fairer cost?

[Frostflame]

Actually I think its fine because of the risk factor involved with the ability to reroll a single die roll once per day, and taking the second result no matter what whether good or bad.

[KaeYoss]

Boggle wrote:

One thing that could have been corrected i think is the luck blade on page 474

its still only 22060 gp for an item with no wishes but a chance to re - roll a potential failed save.

I always thought this item was way to cheap any ideas of what would be a fairer cost?

Let's see:

+2 short sword = 8310 gp
+1 luck bonus on saves: 2000 (luck bonus) * 1.5 (extra power) = 3000

That means the reroll costs 10750, meaning a base price of 7166 (because it is multiplied by 1.5).

Yeah, it could be considered cheap for what it does. But not that much really. There are feats that allow similar abilities, and class abilities that allow the same thing (the Luck domain has two such powers). Let the reroll cast a flat 10000, times 1.5 for extra power, and leave the other bonuses, and you have a total price of 26310.

Or leave it like that, the 4000-odd gp won't really break the game.

[Boggle]

Frostflame wrote:

Actually I think its fine because of the risk factor involved with the ability to reroll a single die roll once per day, and taking the second result no matter what whether good or bad.

sorry that i dont agree with you would use this re - roll on an obvious low roll particularly on a one at a critical time.

for twenty thousand gold thats so cheap

its a no brainer

thanks for your view thou

[Boggle]

KaeYoss wrote:

Boggle wrote:

One thing that could have been corrected i think is the luck blade on page 474

its still only 22060 gp for an item with no wishes but a chance to re - roll a potential failed save.

I always thought this item was way to cheap any ideas of what would be a fairer cost?

Let's see:

+2 short sword = 8310 gp
+1 luck bonus on saves: 2000 (luck bonus) * 1.5 (extra power) = 3000

That means the reroll costs 10750, meaning a base price of 7166 (because it is multiplied by 1.5).

Yeah, it could be considered cheap for what it does. But not that much really. There are feats that allow similar abilities, and class abilities that allow the same thing (the Luck domain has two such powers). Let the reroll cast a flat 10000, times 1.5 for extra power, and leave the other bonuses, and you have a total price of 26310.

Or leave it like that, the 4000-odd gp won't really break the game.

My god

i cant believe this its clearly broken and has been for ages can none of you see this must be changed

a no save save is a big deal

I get the point that you can now get this with the new feats in the game but at the cost of two feats

thats a big deal when you think about it

for twenty grand this is cheap way to cheap please could someone give me there view of a fairer costing please

[Jadeite]

How is getting a second chance on a saving throw once per day broken? The character doesn't even get to know if his save had been succesful or not, so he might waste the ability on a save that had succeded anyway or may even fail his save because of it.
It's certainly a nice ability, but nowhere near broken.

[kyrt-ryder]

The math's already been done and displayed for you to read, it may be a little underpriced mathematically, but tell me something Boggle. In however many games you've had, exactly how many people have even purchased one luck blade?

(Also, I suggest you pop open your Magic Item Compendium and turn to page 115 and read the Mantle of Second chances. It grants the same once per day reroll with the same caveats, for a flat 12,000 gold, 3,000 cheaper than Kae's estimates and your not stuck buying +2 enhancement bonus on a weapon you don't want.)

[Boggle]

Jadeite wrote:

How is getting a second chance on a saving throw once per day broken? The character doesn't even get to know if his save had been successful or not, so he might waste the ability on a save that had succeeded anyway or may even fail his save because of it.

It's certainly a nice ability, but nowhere near broken.

This is how cleaver players use it

firstly they will not use it willy nilly they will wait judging the right moment to call it

so lets say your player a fighter you roll a one on your reflex save you know if you dont re-roll

your going to lose an item let alone the damage and most likely your weapon/amour or shield

you would use it as long as you dont get a one again your safe even if you fail.

This is one of millions of examples of broken because as someone said its costing you 10000 thousand for the re roll thats a small price when your main weapon at high level costs five times that.

i hope you agree there is an issue here

[Boggle]

kyrt-ryder wrote:

The math's already been done and displayed for you to read, it may be a little underpriced mathematically, but tell me something Boggle. In however many games you've had, exactly how many people have even purchased one luck blade?

(Also, I suggest you pop open your Magic Item Compendium and turn to page 115 and read the Mantle of Second chances. It grants the same once per day reroll with the same caveats, for a flat 12,000 gold, 3,000 cheaper than Kae's estimates and your not stuck buying +2 enhancement bonus on a weapon you don't want.)

dont use splat books mostly broken and you have just proved that

[kyrt-ryder]

Maybe I could get a reply as well Boggle? Seriously it's not a broken ability to get a single luck reroll for 12,000 gold (Kae priced it at 15,000 I believe). Crack open complete scoundrel and you'll find well over a dozen feats, and every one of them helps you build a pool of them.

Heck a halfling Paladin 2, Fighter 8, Fortune's friend X would pretty much never fail a save. (Granted this consumes alot of feats, but thats the point of the fighter levels, to kick a few back in the goal of maintaining strong combat capacity.)

[Paul Watson]

Boggle wrote:

Jadeite wrote:

How is getting a second chance on a saving throw once per day broken? The character doesn't even get to know if his save had been successful or not, so he might waste the ability on a save that had succeeded anyway or may even fail his save because of it.

It's certainly a nice ability, but nowhere near broken.

This is how cleaver players use it

firstly they will not use it willy nilly they will wait judging the right moment to call it

so lets say your player a fighter you roll a one on your reflex save you know if you dont re-roll

your going to lose an item let alone the damage and most likely your weapon/amour or shield

you would use it as long as you dont get a one again your safe even if you fail.

This is one of millions of examples of broken because as someone said its costing you 10000 thousand for the re roll thats a small price when your main weapon at high level costs five times that.

i hope you agree there is an issue here

In which case everything's broken as, shock, clever players will use their abilities to maximum advantage. The ability allows for the possible, but not certain, negation of a single action once/day. Really, what is the fuss about? In Curse of the Crimson Throne, thanks to the Harrow points, people can do that multiple times for free. It's just not broken. There is no issue.

And I've had players reroll on an 8 because they figured they'd failed the save and the consequences were bad so they didn't want to take the chance. So your contention of how this intelligent player will act is false.

[kyrt-ryder]

hahaha, you think splat books are broken? The magic item compendium was designed to fix the problems with WotC's base item prices. Most stuff was way too expensive for people to ever use. People repeatedly used the exact same items over and over again because the unique interesting stuff was way overpriced.

Infact, the MIC is one of few WotC books that actually was pretty well balanced, better than their PH *cough*Druid*cough*, that's for sure.

[Boggle]

kyrt-ryder wrote:

Maybe I could get a reply as well Boggle? Seriously it's not a broken ability to get a single luck reroll for 12,000 gold (Kae priced it at 15,000 I believe). Crack open complete scoundrel and you'll find well over a dozen feats, and every one of them helps you build a pool of them.

Heck a halfling Paladin 2, Fighter 8, Fortune's friend X would pretty much never fail a save. (Granted this consumes alot of feats, but thats the point of the fighter levels, to kick a few back in the goal of maintaining strong combat capacity.)

sorry it is

we will have to agree to disagree

and as i have said dont use broken splat books

the reason is play testing

not enough has been done

[kyrt-ryder]

Might want to add a reply to my last post, seems we've gotten too quick in our replies and lost proper order lol. Sorry if my last one was a little harsh, but you can't label books imbalanced without looking at them.

In the example I gave before, the character is near invincible from save based spells, but he's giving up alot of potential to do so.

[Jadeite]

What would be more broken? An effect that costs the fighter a 100k+ item if he fails a save or an item that grants the fighter the opportunity to reroll such a save?

[Boggle]

Paul Watson wrote:

Boggle wrote:

Jadeite wrote:

How is getting a second chance on a saving throw once per day broken? The character doesn't even get to know if his save had been successful or not, so he might waste the ability on a save that had succeeded anyway or may even fail his save because of it.

It's certainly a nice ability, but nowhere near broken.

This is how cleaver players use it

firstly they will not use it willy nilly they will wait judging the right moment to call it

so lets say your player a fighter you roll a one on your reflex save you know if you dont re-roll

your going to lose an item let alone the damage and most likely your weapon/amour or shield

you would use it as long as you dont get a one again your safe even if you fail.

This is one of millions of examples of broken because as someone said its costing you 10000 thousand for the re roll thats a small price when your main weapon at high level costs five times that.

i hope you agree there is an issue here

Mine is false based on hundreds of hours of play as a dm

you are seriously mistaken

its based on players own admissions that wise i raise the question

I like worlds were it could be possible to get items under the right circumstances

so the question is valid
In which case everything's broken as, shock, clever players will use their abilities to maximum advantage. The ability allows for the possible, but not certain, negation of a single action once/day. Really, what is the fuss about? In Curse of the Crimson Throne, thanks to the Harrow points, people can do that multiple times for free. It's just not broken. There is no issue.

And I've had players reroll on an 8 because they figured they'd failed the save and the consequences were bad so they didn't want to take the chance. So your contention of how this intelligent player will act is false.

[TriOmegaZero]

Sorry Boggle, can't get behind you on this one either. Re-rolling a roll is a common power, one you don't even have to spend gold on. The Imp Great Fortitude/Lightning Reflexes/Iron Will, the Luck domain power, and that is core now. So I don't see the luck blade as broken at all.

Really, I'm toying with the idea of doing away with GP costs altogether. Let the players give me their wishlist, and they'll come across those items in their adventures. I'm not playing the game to do taxes on each character.

[Boggle]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

Sorry Boggle, can't get behind you on this one either. Re-rolling a roll is a common power, one you don't even have to spend gold on. The Imp Great Fortitude/Lightning Reflexes/Iron Will, the Luck domain power, and that is core now. So I don't see the luck blade as broken at all.

Really, I'm toying with the idea of doing away with GP costs altogether. Let the players give me their wishlist, and they'll come across those items in their adventures. I'm not playing the game to do taxes on each character.

Its price is broken not the ability are you all missing the point?

[kyrt-ryder]

Can't complain with that one TriOmega, normally I have more fun throwing gold at them and letting them role-play their shopping and get what they like, but a wish list is a good idea too.

And Boggle, you never answered my question, has anybody ever used the luck blade in one of your games?

[Boggle]

kyrt-ryder wrote:

Can't complain with that one TriOmega, normally I have more fun throwing gold at them and letting them role-play their shopping and get what they like, but a wish list is a good idea too.

a wish list

i wish for more wish's

or more luck blades

lol

[kyrt-ryder]

kyrt-ryder wrote:

And Boggle, you never answered my question, has anybody ever used the luck blade in one of your games?

Well?

[TriOmegaZero]

I think you're missing my point. I don't CARE about GP costs. It seriously isn't worth my time. If the player wants it, he is going to get it, no matter the cost. You setting the price higher is basically 'I don't want to give you the item until you've paid enough.' I prefer to cut that out and say 'Yes you can' or 'No you can't' rather than play accountant.

[Boggle]

kyrt-ryder wrote:

kyrt-ryder wrote:

And Boggle, you never answered my question, has anybody ever used the luck blade in one of your games?

Well?

yes

it has been a source of contention for a while

thats why i raise the question

i have let them in

but i think it should be higher priced so that its the sort of thing thats found or desired at a higher level maybe around level twelve so i strongly believe its cost needs to be factored accordingly

[Boggle]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

I think you're missing my point. I don't CARE about GP costs. It seriously isn't worth my time. If the player wants it, he is going to get it, no matter the cost. You setting the price higher is basically 'I don't want to give you the item until you've paid enough.' I prefer to cut that out and say 'Yes you can' or 'No you can't' rather than play accountant.

sorry you are being un - fair im not playing accountant as you say i am trying to re price an item with i was hoping your help.

i strongly know that any of my players would buy this or request it so i wanted a fairer price guide to scale it.

[TriOmegaZero]

I'm not being unfair, I'm telling you I can't help you. If you don't want them to have a luck blade until level 12, then don't give them a luck blade until level 12. That's my stance on it.

[kyrt-ryder]

Then your group is different from mine. Nobody in my entire group could stomach paying twenty-some thousand gold for a once per day reroll, it just was never considered worth it. I've purchased the mantle of second chances a few times, but it was far from a big deal for the character.

These things are nice, but really, they aren't a big enough effect to warrant nerfing them. The entire reason the MIC was designed is because people weren't buying anything but the same boring stuff. (Stat boosters, AC boosters, magic weapons and armor, you get the drill)

The game should be designed with individuals in mind, give them the freedom to be able to purchase things that are unique, cool, interesting, that add flavor to their characters capabilities. If an item isn't worth the price charged for it, then that whole item was a waste of ink and space.

[Boggle]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

I'm not being unfair, I'm telling you I can't help you. If you don't want them to have a luck blade until level 12, then don't give them a luck blade until level 12. That's my stance on it.

thanks for your view

do you dm or play

[kyrt-ryder]

He's a paizo forum regular, in all honesty it seems like 99% of us are DM's lol. But look at what he's said in his posts. How he would give the party that stuff, he's discussing handing loot out to a party he's DMing for. Well, GMing now I imagine.

[TriOmegaZero]

I've been playing about three/four years now. I tried DMing a couple times, and then deployed to Afghanistan. Not having any other options, I ran Shackled City for all 15 months of that deployment. So I have a little experience, but not the decades you do.

[Boggle]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

I've been playing about three/four years now. I tried DMing a couple times, and then deployed to Afghanistan. Not having any other options, I ran Shackled City for all 15 months of that deployment. So I have a little experience, but not the decades you do.

well i admire you

thats some assignment

by the way i do appreciate your thoughts

as i always say everyone has there own playing style both players and dms

so thanks for your views and happy gaming

[kyrt-ryder]

I'll admit I don't have all that much experience DMing either, having only spent the last 3 years in D&D (the later two of them DMing though), but when it comes to game balance I've got an edge.

I've designed and run more than my fair share of online roleplaying games (play by post systems) and some of them have required an extreme balancing grace (hence why that wishlist idea is so appealing to me TriOmega, the PbP I run requires I be so much of a balancing accountant the thought of doing it for Pathfinder as well makes me sick lol)

[TriOmegaZero]

I'm sorry I couldn't be more help Boggle.

And I'm glad you like it kyrt, if you come up with anything based on it be sure to post it to the forums so I can check it out. I think I liked Magic Item Compendium for the 'item levels' best, because then I had an estimate of when it would be okay to give them out.

[Boggle]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

I'm sorry I couldn't be more help Boggle.

And I'm glad you like it kyrt, if you come up with anything based on it be sure to post it to the forums so I can check it out. I think I liked Magic Item Compendium for the 'item levels' best, because then I had an estimate of when it would be okay to give them out.

you have and cheers

[kyrt-ryder]

Yeah, I remember reading that and thinking how much easier it would be to just throw them those things, but then I wouldn't get the sheer pleasure of watching them fight when told all the gold I gave them from their adventures to shop with put them into encumbrance lmao.

I do wish this place had a PM method, be nice to discuss some stuff one on one, if you have yahoo or windows live messenger mine is below.

Spoiler:

[e-mail]

[TriOmegaZero]

Well, the nice thing about divorcing the equipment from the gold economy is that you're free to give them those astronomical totals and see what they do with them. I've heard of characters investing in orphanages and buying castles once they no longer had to spend that money on +5 swords. This also solves the problem of dragon hoardes being pitifully small because otherwise the part would have too much wealth per level.

And my Yahoo email uses the same screenname as here, kyrt. Drop me a line any time, I'm back in Mosul with no game to play for a few months.

I now return you to the regularly scheduled luck blade discussion.

[kyrt-ryder]

That does sound intriguing. Btw, consider the line dropped, just waiting for a reply lol.

[Frostflame]

Well considering you cant see either roll and you have to abide by the second roll no matter what, I think the price is just right.

[TriOmegaZero]

Didn't get it yet, kyrt, might be that I didn't capitalize anything on my yahoo email, so just triomegazero

[KaeYoss]

Boggle wrote:

My god

A simple "Kae'Yoss" is sufficient.

Please note that I don't grant the Luck domain, so you might reconsider your flattery.

Boggle wrote:

i cant believe this its clearly broken and has been for ages can none of you see this must be changed

How many people must be blind before you realise that you're hallucinating? :P

Boggle wrote:

a no save save is a big deal

A what? "no save save"? What does that mean? I think it might mean that you get a save even if you don't usually, which is not a power the luck blade grants.

Beyond that, no, it's not a big deal. I don't see the games flooding with luck priests who rule supreme becaus of their rerolls. They get that ability - for free! - before anyone could even afford a luck blade (if they owned nothing but a luck blade and a beggar's outfit/birthday suit).

And they get up to 3 of those rolls as they advance.

Boggle wrote:

I get the point that you can now get this with the new feats in the game but at the cost of two feats

thats a big deal when you think about it

So? A +2 weapon gives me +2 to attack and damage. That's better than weapon focus and weapon specialisation. Should a +2 weapon cost 30.000 or something like that?

You have to look at the big picture.

Boggle wrote:

please could someone give me there view of a fairer costing please

I just did.

[KaeYoss]

kyrt-ryder wrote:

The math's already been done and displayed for you to read, it may be a little underpriced mathematically, but tell me something Boggle. In however many games you've had, exactly how many people have even purchased one luck blade?

I'm not Boggle, but I've just done a statistical estimate on the luck blade numbers in all the games I ever played in or run. I'll have to run the numbers through my cluster of mainframes to give you an exact number, but an early estimate would be 0.

None of the resident powergames ever got one as far as I remember. And that alone is a scientifically accepted method of proving that something is not overpowered.

[KaeYoss]

KaeYoss wrote:

None of the resident powergames ever got one as far as I remember. And that alone is a scientifically accepted method of proving that something is not overpowered.

I want to emphasise this by replying to myself. Those guys have a sixth sense when it comes to stuff that breaks games. They can juggle three dozen books and find the perfect combination of race, classes, prestige classes, feats, spells and magic items that lets them do stuff like survive the Apocalypse or cause the Apocalypse as a standard action at will (combined with that Apocalyptical Survivor ability).

If the luck blade were anywhere close to broken - a single item that doesn't even need an insane combination of 3295 different rules snippeds from 300 books from 10 systems or something like that; broken all by itself - They would have been all over it like a pitbull on a poodle, and they would have done so starting somewhere before 1999 (years before it was even published - their powergamery is supernatural in nature and cannot be explained by science) and would never had played a single character without it. If they had to use "Complete Frankenstein" to graft an additional arm onto their character because they're already using a three-handed mercurial dai-glaive of darkness or something.

I have a simple method of determining if something I created is overpowered. I print it out, hold it into their fielf of vision. If their pupils dilate, their breathing becomes rapid and shallow, and they start to drool, I have to take it down a notch or two. If not, I have created something that might actually be well-balanced and conductive to great roleplaying.

[King of Vrock]

I clearly don't think the Luck Blade is broken either... and I've given out ones with Wishes on them! A Luck Re-roll is no big Whoop. As stated there are several Core ways to get one and if your fighter just rolled a Nat 1 and has a re-roll let them use it! Wanting them to risk an expensive item because of a bad roll seems like adversarial DM'ing to me.

The point is to have fun while gaming, not see how much pain and suffering you can inflict on the players. Making them sweat is one thing, but beatin them up and taking their stuff is no fun.

As a player I've had a good chunk of my gear get ruined from a bad set of encounters (Rust Monster, Destrachan, Black Pudding) in one adventure! I can tell you until my DM's replaced my stuff with nicer gear I was a bit down.

As a DM I like to challenge my PC's, but when I give them cool treasure I expect them to use it. In fact I make sure they utilize the special gear they have as a point in adventure design.

The real thrill of DM'ing is entertaining your friends for a couple hours a week.

--Can you smell-ell-ell-ell-ell, what the Vrcok is cooking?!?!

[k3ndawg]

Guys, I gotta tell ya. I've had a couple of the worst power gamers at a table that you could imagine. I've DM'd these guys for over 5 years! And not once has either of them (or ANY other player) EVER thought the Luck Blade was worth the ink it was printed with! Face it. It's a limited usage, crap weapon. All my players have been more interested in Keen, Flaming Burst, Axiomatic, Holy and even materials like Cold Iron and Adamantite.

Not only is it not a big deal. VERY few players will ever be actually interested in it. ONE freakin' re-roll a day? Nope, not worth a crap.

And therefore, completely unworthy of this thread.

er... or my commment... ;)

[Xaaon of Xen'Drik]

kyrt-ryder wrote:

Maybe I could get a reply as well Boggle? Seriously it's not a broken ability to get a single luck reroll for 12,000 gold (Kae priced it at 15,000 I believe). Crack open complete scoundrel and you'll find well over a dozen feats, and every one of them helps you build a pool of them.

Heck a halfling Paladin 2, Fighter 8, Fortune's friend X would pretty much never fail a save. (Granted this consumes alot of feats, but thats the point of the fighter levels, to kick a few back in the goal of maintaining strong combat capacity.)

Complete book of scoundrels...another splat book...don't defend a splat book with another splat book...

[kyrt-ryder]

You try running a game with a luck based character and see how powerful he is. Not very. Believe me, the luck mechanic is not overpowering in any way. Infact it wasn't even really viable in 3.5 with the feat limits.