This problem recently came up this past weekend with out first Pathfinder game.
Gnome rogue dives into swampy ditch getting full cover/concealment from gnome bard across the road from him. He then succeeds in stealth check and bard fails to spot him with perception.
Can the rogue now sneak attack with his hand crossbow?
When does a target lose his Dex to AC.
Against unseen targets? (ie invis)
Then what about stealth,sniping (sub rule under stealth)
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This problem recently came up this past weekend with out first Pathfinder game.
Gnome rogue dives into swampy ditch getting full cover/concealment from gnome bard across the road from him. He then succeeds in stealth check and bard fails to spot him with perception.
Can the rogue now sneak attack with his hand crossbow?
If the rogue is within 30' of the target, and the target does not have any concealment, and does not have Uncanny Dodge as a class feature, then the target loses his Dex bonus to AC and is vulnerable to sneak attack damage.
When does a target lose his Dex to AC.
Against unseen targets? (ie invis)
Then what about stealth,sniping (sub rule under stealth)
a) At the beginning of melee, before his first turn; if the attacker is undetected; if the target is stunned or immobilized in some way (see the specific status description). Also, if the attacker has successfully feinted against the target, then the target loses his Dex bonus against the next attack within one round.
b) Generally yes.
c) See (a).
Guess the important part of that question was simply does attacking after a successful stealth check (meeting all the requirements for making a stealth check) then allow a rogue to attempt a sneak attack. The rules are not clear on when an opponent loses his dex past the surprise round or when affected by a condition. Other then a mention along with invis, I can't find a ruling for attacking while unseen. Thanks for the quick reply.
When does a target lose his Dex to AC.
Against unseen targets? (ie invis)
Then what about stealth,sniping (sub rule under stealth)a) At the beginning of melee, before his first turn; if the attacker is undetected; if the target is stunned or immobilized in some way (see the specific status description). Also, if the attacker has successfully feinted against the target, then the target loses his Dex bonus against the next attack within one round.
b) Generally yes.
c) See (a).
Do you have a PRPG cite for that bolded part, or just common sense application?
I ask because I have someone (player and GM) who believes that an undetected opponent gains no advantage against a foe who is already in combat (which seems absurd to me).
If they don't get their Dex bonus, you can sneak attack them. So if you're invisible, in a tree, disguised as a rock, hiding in the shadows, whatever situation where they are considered flat-footed for your attack. It can be a sneak attack. Heck if you succeed the DC for a snipe you are still hidden after it as well.
Here's the kicker though... can the Rogue who just waltzed right up to a target with his Ring of Invisibility on then get a sneak attack in every attack in his full round attack?
I believe he would get just a surprise round, then you would roll for initiative. Essentially just like attacking out of total concealment, or cover. He wouldn't be invisible beyond the first attack.
If it was a Ring of Greater Invisibility (good luck with that item) you would get your surprise round. Roll initiative. Then on your next turn your full attack while invisible.
If they don't get their Dex bonus, you can sneak attack them. So if you're invisible, in a tree, disguised as a rock, hiding in the shadows, whatever situation where they are considered flat-footed for your attack.
So even if they are already engaged in combat with someone else, they are considered flat-footed to you if they are unaware of your existence, right? The other interpretation is completely nonsensical, so I assumed this was the way it worked. However, it does not seem to be clearly stated that way in the rules.
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When does a target lose his Dex to AC.
Against unseen targets? (ie invis)
Then what about stealth,sniping (sub rule under stealth)a) At the beginning of melee, before his first turn; if the attacker is undetected; if the target is stunned or immobilized in some way (see the specific status description). Also, if the attacker has successfully feinted against the target, then the target loses his Dex bonus against the next attack within one round.
b) Generally yes.
c) See (a).
Do you have a PRPG cite for that bolded part, or just common sense application?
I ask because I have someone (player and GM) who believes that an undetected opponent gains no advantage against a foe who is already in combat (which seems absurd to me).
What your player and GM are saying is correct, they are not flat-footed unless it is the start of the round. However, a rogue attacking from invisibility is still denying the defender his dexterity bonus to AC as per the Attack roll modifiers to AC table and the invisibe description in the glossary. And if you read the description of sneak attack a rogue can perform a sneak attack whenever the target is not allowed to use his dexterity to AC.
The trick is to remember that "losing your dexterity to AC" is not the same as "being flat-footed" but both result in losing your dexterity bonus and making you vulnerable to sneak attacks.
Also try not to mix up invisible (condition) with invisibility (spell), a rogue on the other side of a low wall is invisible to you (visually undetectable) but is using total cover instead of invisibility to gain the invisible condition.
What your player and GM are saying is correct, they are not flat-footed unless it is the start of the round. However, a rogue attacking from invisibility is still denying the defender his dexterity bonus to AC as per the Attack roll modifiers to AC table and the invisibe description in the glossary. And if you read the description of sneak attack a rogue can perform a sneak attack whenever the target is not allowed to use his dexterity to AC.
The trick is to remember that "losing your dexterity to AC" is not the same as "being flat-footed" but both result in losing your dexterity bonus and making you vulnerable to sneak attacks.
Also try not to mix up invisible (condition) with invisibility (spell), a rogue on the other side of a low wall is invisible to you (visually undetectable) but is using total cover instead of invisibility to gain the invisible condition.
So does a rogue using stealth to hide gain the "invisibility" condition, such that opponents are denied their dex bonus to AC?
Basically the question I have is this: if a rogue sneaks up behind an orc while the fighter is pounding on it, is there any difference between the attacks when the orc knows the rogue is there and when the orc does not know?
yes there is a difference, in either case you would (presumably) be flanking so you can sneak attack.
When you are undetected, you are effectively invisible to him and get an additional + 2 bonus on attack, the orc loses it's bonus to Armor Class from dodge or dexterity bonuses as well.
The difference is, as soon as the orc gets to act after you attack he won't be considered flatfooted against you, since he already is in combat you have virtually no chance to act before him before his turn gets up. (like you would in a surprise round with a good initiative roll)
yes there is a difference, in either case you would (presumably) be flanking so you can sneak attack.
When you are undetected, you are effectively invisible to him and get an additional + 2 bonus on attack, the orc loses it's bonus to Armor Class from dodge or dexterity bonuses as well.
That's exactly how I believed it should be. But I was not able to find anything about undetected attackers or unaware defenders except for the specific rules about invisibility. And as was pointed out above, I confused the condition invisibility with the magical effect invisibility, so I did not realize it would apply here.
Thank you all for the clarification. If it had gone the other way, that would have been a tough pill to swallow in an otherwise excellent game system!