There lots of other questions I have about the different cultures of Golarion, that would fall under the thread title.
(... if not the original post).
For example:
- Are Elves Matrilinear? (A reasonable idea given that their primary Goddess is also the the Goddess of Lust.)
- Are they even Matriarchal? :)
There lots of other questions I have about the different cultures of Golarion, that would fall under the thread title.
(... if not the original post).For example:
- Are Elves Matrilinear? (A reasonable idea given that their primary Goddess is also the the Goddess of Lust.)
- Are they even Matriarchal? :)
Hey, that's how I have 'em in my home world.
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I'm not sure, beyond the elven nation of Kyonin having a queen.
...I can't even remember if the drow are still matriarchal in Golarion. I think they are, but if so, it's not because of Lolth worship. Heck, it could be something carried over from traditional elven culture(if elves are matrilinear/matriarchal of course).
Also, yeah that's how they work in my homebrew as well.
Great minds.
Is there an Asian-inspired civilisation/culture in the Golarion campaign setting?
Several of them. In fact, for just about every major real-world Asian culture, there is a Golarion equivalent. Check out the Campaign Setting sourcebook beginning on page 152.
Asia: Golarion has two continents with Asian Flavour!
Elves and chicks: I'd say they don't have a preference. They're chaotic, so they won't get tied down to any one way to do things. Sometimes they have Queens, sometimes Kings. Sometimes they trace their lineage through the fathers, sometimes the mothers. Pure meritocracy.
Drow: Yes, they are martriarchial - but it doesn't go to the ridiculous lengths the spiderkissers went.
Elves and chicks: I'd say they don't have a preference. They're chaotic, so they won't get tied down to any one way to do things. Sometimes they have Queens, sometimes Kings. Sometimes they trace their lineage through the fathers, sometimes the mothers. Pure meritocracy.
Actually, "They're chaotic" is exactly why elves would use a Matrilineal system for genealogy (This does not require that they also be matriarchal). Especially since Elves (especially Pathfinder Elves) are also highly intelligent.
Here is why:
Elven Matriarch meets an Elven guy in a bar that catches her fancy and seduces him (as you said, elves are chaotic). She then has a child by him.
- In a Patrilineal culture: big problem, as the child is "illegitamate" and therefore has no right to inherit and likely will suffer a serious social stigma.
- In a Matrilineal culture: small problem, as it is probibly "better" to know who the father is, but there would be no stigma attached to either the child or the mother. (... or her actual husband for that matter.)
Now, since the primary elven deity is the Goddess of Trickery, Revenge, and Lust the "Elven Matriarch meets an Elven guy in a bar that catches her fancy and seduces him." might even be socially encouraged behavior. :)
So, a Matrilineal culture would avoid a whole mess of problems that "chaotic" elves would want to avoid.
Now, you do have a point, Elves (as "chaotic good" beings) are likely not "Matriarchal." They would favor merit for who can perform a specific duty or hold a position of authority - reguardless of that persons gender. (Under this thinking Elves would also not have "gender roles" as we understand it.)
Now, "Dark Elves" would likely be "Matriarchal" under that view, because (as "chaotic evil" beings) ownership is power.
They're chaotic. They do what they want.
Sometimes it will be traced through the mother. Sometimes, through the father.
Sometimes, it is useful to trace it through the mother, and they do that. But just because they have priestesses that like to sleep around doesn't mean they will always trace it through the mother. That would be one of those pesky, stupid laws.
I also think that being born out of wedlock doesn't carry any significant stigma in elven society.
The matrilinear elves and elven queen thing is kind reminiscent of Tolkein's Lothlorien where they were rule by Queen Galadriel.
That wasn't matrilinear. Galadriel had ruled Laurelindórinan since forever. No daughter inheriting anything.
The matriarchial society of the drow is something that has been around since first edition and has managed to infiltrate itself in other games as well (Old habits die hard). Now since there is no Lolth in Golarion I would assume their culture being evil as it is follows the philosophy the strongest elf rules whether male or female. That certainly keeps with their chaotic evil aligment. Id like to know is there some solid reasoning why the drow culture should be matriarchical in Golarion?
Actually, there would be ... if ... you followed my reasoning earlier.
The logic would be as follows:
- All elves are matrilinear. (This is the keystone that makes the rest of this work.)
- Ownership is Power.
Therefore
- Females in the corrupted elven society of the Drow, end up with almost all social and political power.
Without that, or a goddess like Lloth, Dark Elves being so Female dominant becomes a harder sell. (Not impossible, but I would like to see the hoops jumped through to get to that point.)
Well, there is a potential logic, but it is one most game designers would be loathe to follow. In some species, the male is bigger, in some, the female is bigger. If in drow society women were not only the bearers of children but also the larger gender, then they'd have definitely evolved a matriarchal society in which men were dominated.
Well, there is a potential logic, but it is one most game designers would be loathe to follow. In some species, the male is bigger, in some, the female is bigger. If in drow society women were not only the bearers of children but also the larger gender, then they'd have definitely evolved a matriarchal society in which men were dominated.
That is not supported by the art though. (Nor by the game stats of Dark Elves. :))
The logic would be as follows:
- All elves are matrilinear. (This is the keystone that makes the rest of this work.)
- Ownership is Power.
Therefore
- Females in the corrupted elven society of the Drow, end up with almost all social and political power.
Without that, or a goddess like Lloth, Dark Elves being so Female dominant becomes a harder sell. (Not impossible, but I would like to see the hoops jumped through to get to that point.)
Sorry, Lord Fyre, but I think your logic is flawed here.
Drow being a female dominant race is not that far-fetched. The Drow article in Pathfinder ... someone help me out with the issue #? ... explicitly states that the dominance of the female gender is a direct result of the drow Descent, because the males largely perished on the way (hey, someone had to feed the ropers!).
In fact, taking this as granted allows for an argumentum e contrario: Drow are matriarchal because of special circumstances, which are not present for 'normal' elves. Therefore, 'normal' elves will not (necessarily) follow the same rules.
I'm with Kae'yoss on this one. Elves just don't care. They are egalitarian enough not to worry about a matriarchal or patriarchal society.
That is not supported by the art though. (Nor by the game stats of Dark Elves. :))
Heh. Are you looking at the same art I've been looking at? Cuz it seems to me that in game art, drow females have always been dominant! :D
Your point is certainly supported by miniatures, however, in which the male minis are almost always bigger. I just tell my players minis are representative and sometimes misleading.
true true one of the things with being immortal and all. But the elf queen iconic has been based off of her.The matrilinear elves and elven queen thing is kind reminiscent of Tolkein's Lothlorien where they were rule by Queen Galadriel.That wasn't matrilinear. Galadriel had ruled Laurelindórinan since forever. No daughter inheriting anything.
Merisiel is a queen? I wouldn't say a "forlorn lost queen" is anything like Galadriel.
Without that, or a goddess like Lloth, Dark Elves being so Female dominant becomes a harder sell. (Not impossible, but I would like to see the hoops jumped through to get to that point.)
It works out like this: After the drow went down below, they had conflicts with... well, just about everyone: Orcs, dwarves (in several flavours) and lots of other nasty stuff. They took losses, and males took the worst losses, the females had an advantage, and they took it. They were able to consolidate their advantage and it has been like that ever since.
(edit: Or what Dance of Ruin said. It's in #15 The Armageddon Echo, by the way)
Well, there is a potential logic, but it is one most game designers would be loathe to follow. In some species, the male is bigger, in some, the female is bigger. If in drow society women were not only the bearers of children but also the larger gender, then they'd have definitely evolved a matriarchal society in which men were dominated.
That assumes, of course, that Pathfinder drow continue that.
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Merisiel is a queen? I wouldn't say a "forlorn lost queen" is anything like Galadriel.true true one of the things with being immortal and all. But the elf queen iconic has been based off of her.The matrilinear elves and elven queen thing is kind reminiscent of Tolkein's Lothlorien where they were rule by Queen Galadriel.That wasn't matrilinear. Galadriel had ruled Laurelindórinan since forever. No daughter inheriting anything.
Not Merisiel. He's talking about Telandia Edasseril, the queen of Kyonin, who seems like she's a bit based off Galadriel (though not as much as the previous post seems to imply).
Jeremy Puckett
That makes sense. By the way who is Mersiel
The elven iconic.
Not Merisiel. He's talking about Telandia Edasseril, the queen of Kyonin, who seems like she's a bit based off Galadriel (though not as much as the previous post seems to imply).
Ah. That explains it.
Telandia is not an iconic. She's an NPC.
Iconics are the 12 characters that are used on covers, as pregens, in the class sections.
By the way who is MersielPathfinder's creepy-cute elven rogue iconic.
Creepy, I get.
Cute, I do not get.
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By the way who is MersielPathfinder's creepy-cute elven rogue iconic.Creepy, I get.
Cute, I do not get.
that is because you are blind dwarven lover!
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that is because you are blind dwarven lover!
Maybe but I'm a blind elf-lover and I find nothing cute in Merisiel as well. In fact, that's why I love her so much.
I mean, look at the cover of Elves of Golarion. There are tons of creepiness about her in this picture (by the way, can we get Ben Wootten as the cover artist of a future AP? This would be great!). But cute? No way!
Since this is obviously a topic at the heart of the issue of civilization and culture in Golarion, and by no stretch a threadjack, I will allow myself to return and comment: yes, both cute and creepy.
By the way who is MersielPathfinder's creepy-cute elven rogue iconic.Creepy, I get.
Cute, I do not get.
Because she never smiled at you.
that is because you are blind dwarven lover!Maybe but I'm a blind elf-lover and I find nothing cute in Merisiel as well. In fact, that's why I love her so much.
I mean, look at the cover of Elves of Golarion. There are tons of creepiness about her in this picture (by the way, can we get Ben Wootten as the cover artist of a future AP? This would be great!). But cute? No way!
That's because you're ogling the bugbears.
Not to mention deadly....
Oh yes. In fact, I've only met three rogues that were cuter and only one that was more deadly.
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Ah. That explains it.
Telandia is not an iconic. She's an NPC.
Iconics are the 12 characters that are used on covers, as pregens, in the class sections.
I think he was using the term in the generic sense, not in the sense that Paizo uses for the characters. He was saying that Galadriel is the inspiration for the iconic elven queen seen in so much fantasy literature and in so many games.
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that is because you are blind dwarven lover!Maybe but I'm a blind elf-lover and I find nothing cute in Merisiel as well. In fact, that's why I love her so much.
I mean, look at the cover of Elves of Golarion. There are tons of creepiness about her in this picture (by the way, can we get Ben Wootten as the cover artist of a future AP? This would be great!). But cute? No way!
tsk tsk tks
you can't just see the cuteness on her stabbityof course she looks cute bathed in the blood of those she sneaked attack to death
what is wrong with you!!! :P
I think he was using the term in the generic sense, not in the sense that Paizo uses for the characters. He was saying that Galadriel is the inspiration for the iconic elven queen seen in so much fantasy literature and in so many games.Ah. That explains it.
Telandia is not an iconic. She's an NPC.
Iconics are the 12 characters that are used on covers, as pregens, in the class sections.
Well, he used it incorrectly :P
Galadriel is the iconic. Kyonin's queen Telandia may be based of iconic queen Galadriel (though I'm not sure I'd call her an iconic), but she's not iconic herself. And I don't think they're too similar beyond the fact that they're both female elven rulers.
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Galadriel is the iconic. Kyonin's queen Telandia may be based of iconic queen Galadriel (though I'm not sure I'd call her an iconic), but she's not iconic herself. And I don't think they're too similar beyond the fact that they're both female elven rulers.
I am simply pointing out his intent. I hope I didn't offend.
I'm not here to be a jerk KaeYoss. I honestly respect you and find you to be an intelligent and well spoken poster. It just seemed you misunderstood what was being inferred and I tried to clarify. My post wasn't intended to rub your face in anything. So if you felt that was the case, I apologize.
And I will be the first to admit that the entire discussion and understanding of it really can come down to usage and semantics. I got away from ENWorld due to discussions like this. Mostly because I can't leave well enough alone. Which doesn't impact the discussions of Golarion civilization at all. So screw Galadriel and Telandia. Hell, they can screw each other for all I care. Let's talk culture. :)
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Just to be really clear on the semantics of 'iconic'.
Standard English
Icon (noun) = image or representation
Iconic (adjective) = relating to or having the characteristics of an icon.
RPG English
Iconic = A contraction of 'Iconic character', a character that represents a specific class.
This is a classic example of making an adjective into a noun. "An iconic" only makes sense in the specific vocabulary of RPGs.
I am simply pointing out his intent. I hope I didn't offend.
Nothing a duel at dawn won't fix.
I'm not here to be a jerk KaeYoss.
I'm not saying you are. I just wanted to make things clear. I wasn't getting annoyed or pissed or anything. No apology necessary. Maybe I even need to apologise.
I'm just a bit of a pedant when it comes to semantics. I like words to be used as they are intented to.
So screw Galadriel and Telandia. Hell, they can screw each other for all I care. Let's talk culture. :)
Nice culture that. I wouldn't mind your first suggestion. I wouldn't mind the second part, either.
Standard English
Icon (noun) = image or representation
Iconic (adjective) = relating to or having the characteristics of an icon.
image or representation doesn't just have to mean picture. It can also be a symbol.
An icon can be someone or something that is a symbol to its kind, perfectly representing it. Che Guevara, for example, is an icon for revolution.
This is a classic example of making an adjective into a noun. "An iconic" only makes sense in the specific vocabulary of RPGs.
It's simply shortened. Iconic Character became just Iconic when Character was dropped.
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I'm not saying you are. I just wanted to make things clear. I wasn't getting annoyed or pissed or anything. No apology necessary. Maybe I even need to apologise.
No need to apologize. I was just afraid I irritated you. I like to keep things on the level whenever I can. Sometimes I can go a bit overboard on the apologies, but I tend to overcompensate because I am always afraid I did something to bother someone when I all I meant to do was be helpful. So, thanks for letting me know I wasn't inadvertently rude. :)
By the way, as an English major, I totally understand the issue behind semantics. I tend to be purposefully obtuse if I have a problem with the manner in which someone is communicating. I think my professors installed a chip in my head or something.
As for the duel: pistols, swords, or rubber chickens?
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Nice culture that. I wouldn't mind your first suggestion. I wouldn't mind the second part, either.
I imagine the elves wouldn't mind it either. When you live for centuries, things like sexual orientation probably doesn't hold the same weight that it does in our culture. An elf of either gender could have a relationship with a woman for 100 years before switching off to a man for another 100. In fact, most relationships probably come to their natural end and the two participants move on.
I could also see elves practicing polyamoury. I don't imagine they have wedding contracts that operate the way ours do. Giving up a "half of everything" would be abhorrent to them. Assuming elves have the same sense of property that we do.
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I could also see elves practicing polyamoury. I don't imagine they have wedding contracts that operate the way ours do. Giving up a "half of everything" would be abhorrent to them. Assuming elves have the same sense of property that we do.
doubt it
but certainly their culture is quite alien to ustheir live by meritocracis, but in the case of rulers it appears to be hereditary... and they are asking for a heir... but apprently the queen's only love is her eagle companion
its interesting she is looking for a copanion between the forlon to join their race... and that she is unable to govern correctly because every elven house don't want to be meddled with it...
sounds like a pretty confusing society and politics... at least taldan has squmatics of how theirs work and the prince call dibs on how things are done... at least while he watches his subjects :P
otherwise pretty interesting culture that of the elves...
ohh and yes if we have the option of talking about culture, ot watching Telerin and Galadriel screing themsleves... i indeed believe what has priority here.
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And I will be the first to admit that the entire discussion and understanding of it really can come down to usage and semantics. I got away from ENWorld due to discussions like this. Mostly because I can't leave well enough alone. Which doesn't impact the discussions of Golarion civilization at all. So screw Galadriel and Telandia. Hell, they can screw each other for all I care. Let's talk culture. :)
My sense of worry and humility are kicking at my brain. I apologize if anyone was offended or angered by this statement. It was crass. It can be read as sexist, which was certainly not my intent. It was meant to be a comic, throw-away line to lighten the mood. Unfortunately it was also in bad taste. So, once again, I apologize.
I am not sure it helps, but that scenario actually holds no interest for me. Which, if you knew me, would be apart of the comedy. But since you don't, it just comes across as insensitive. Which certainly warrants an apology.
Moving on, because I have embarrassed myself enough already, how do you think dwarven culture would handle marriage and property ownership?