Help improving sense motive on a low Wisdom build (no level dips)

[Chell Raighn]

My group started a new campaign the other day, and my character (a silo battle dancer) is going to be building into the snake style feat chain. However, I only have a 10 in wisdom and my two best stats are Dexterity and Charisma... to make the most out of the snake style feat chain I really need to be able to boost my sense motive high enough that I can reliably exceed my AC with it. As it stands however, I will only be able to get an effective +2 to my AC on a roll of 10... if possible I would love to be able to apply my charisma or dexterity to sense motive. I know of expanded versatility for bard, which would let me use my perform (dance) but the 6 level investment to do so is not worth it... and with the Champaign targeted to end at about level 15, I ideally would like to avoid any level dips...

[Name Violation]

Skill focus
Alertness
Boost wisdom

[Lelomenia]

Inquisitor’s monocle or Seducer’s Bane (they don’t stack)
Heroism
Tears to Wine
Alertness (familiars give Alertness for free)

[avr]

For cheap consumables there's
Intuition serum
Book of puzzles

[Belafon]

Balanced Education trait lets you make a skill check using dex for wis, but only once per day.

If you're looking for a single feat or trait to always change a wisdom skill to charisma or dex, I'm pretty sure there's no such thing. Several that go the other way, though.

It's only a two-level dip in bard or skald for Versatile Performance (though you do have to put skill points in oratory or sing).

Two levels of Cavalier or Samurai can get you a Versatile Performance with the Order of the Songbird.

Do you have a deity? Shelyn's second evangelist boon gets you one Versatile Performance feat. If you're going to do this, I probably would go the actual Evangelist Prestige class. Though you will be 11th level before you get that ability.

[Oli Ironbar]

Cracked Magenta Prism gives a +2 competency bonus for only 800gp. Might be a good place to start.

Also talk with your GM about a masterwork item that grants a circumstance bonus. I have beard wax for a character which enhances his sense motive whenever he twists his mustache.

[David knott 242]

Don't forget the standard "+1 to Sense Motive and it is a class skill for you" traits. One of those should give you +1 to that skill (and you would get a total of +4 if Sense Motive were not already a class skill for you). Since you don't need to make Sense Motive a class skill, maybe there is a trait that gives you more than +1 to that skill without making it a class skill.

If you can spare the feats, VMC Bard from Pathfinder Unchained gives you Versatile Performance at 11th level. Variant multiclassing costs you five feats but no level dips.

Note also that the Skill Focus and Alertness feats double their benefits when you have 10 ranks in the appropriate skill, so you get a big boost at 10th level.

On the other hand, AC itself is a moving target, as there are as many ways to boost your AC as to boost your Sense Motive bonus.

[Chell Raighn]

Belafon wrote:

Balanced Education trait lets you make a skill check using dex for wis, but only once per day.

If you're looking for a single feat or trait to always change a wisdom skill to charisma or dex, I'm pretty sure there's no such thing. Several that go the other way, though.

It's only a two-level dip in bard or skald for Versatile Performance (though you do have to put skill points in oratory or sing).

Two levels of Cavalier or Samurai can get you a Versatile Performance with the Order of the Songbird.

Do you have a deity? Shelyn's second evangelist boon gets you one Versatile Performance feat. If you're going to do this, I probably would go the actual Evangelist Prestige class. Though you will be 11th level before you get that ability.

While it may only be a two level dip for versatile performance, I lose out on much more with that two level dip and I’m focused heavily on perform dance... though I guess it wouldn’t be terrible to add some perform sing... and the tip about the cavalier/samurai with order of the songbird does help with one of my concerns about level dipping... infact... if I take Brawling Blademaster Samurai, I could swing a 4 level dip and actually not lose anything from my build...

Regarding deities... the character is an atheist... and the campaign has a different set of deities than the norm... Each of the core deities feats and prestige classes are reassigned to a few of the different religious sects in the world, as I had previously asked about which sect Shelyn’s stuff was assigned to... and unfortunately the answer ended up being the one and only sect that my character in particular would never join, due to backstory reasons... (I was looking into taking levels in Devoted Muse before)

But anyways... your suggestion of samurai gave me a workable solution... didn’t want to level dip, but I can make this specific one work... and if I go 4 levels I get some added bonus from it... though 4 levels is the absolute maximum I can sacrifice... getting some abilities at 11th level brawler that I can’t sacrifice on my build... now I just go to figure out what levels to take the dip at...

I will try to fit skill focus in on my feats where I can as well...

[Mark Hoover 330]

Mutant Eye trait gives +2 to Sense Motive, but -2 on Bluff and Diplomacy against Humanoids. If you don't mind having a third eye on your forehead, this might be a decent Trait to pick

A Half-Elf gets a free Skill Focus as a Bonus Feat at character creation. Taking Skill Focus: Sense Motive gives another +3

Also as a Half-Elf you get an alternate race trait called Fey Magic, though you'd have to give up Keen Senses for it. With this ability the PC is able to cast Guidance on themselves 1/day, if you're in the right terrain

I know this is a stretch, but can you find a budget for TWO feats? If so, consider Eldritch Heritage to get a Familiar, then the feat Evolved Familiar to give the familiar the Skilled Evolution, in turn giving the Familiar a +8 on Use Magic Device. Furthermore, consider working with your GM to allow the Familiar to retrain it's initial Feat, swapping that out for Extra Traits. Finally, give the familiar the Clever Wordplay Trait as well as Dangerously Curious. Now the Familiar activates magic items using it's Int instead of Cha score, it gains Use Magic Device as a Class skill and finally gets a +1 Trait bonus to the skill

Applying all of the above to the Familiar, it has a +13 to UMD, minus whatever Int penalty it suffers. Intensify Psyche is a level 2 spell for many, level 1 for Skald, Mesmerist or Bard, that could be put into a wand. Said Familiar could act as your "wand jockey" and be applying this before or even during combat for another +2 Competence on Sense Motive checks

Or, if you've got TONS of cash to spend and you pump up your OWN Use Magic Device instead... consider buying a Wand of [url=https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/v/visualization-of-the-mind]Visualization of the Mind[/url. This is a level 2 Sorcerer/Wizard spell so already you're at 4500 GP to buy this, but then tack on 50 uses of the expensive 200 GP material component and the final wand costs a whopping 14,500 GP! However, one charge from the wand will give the PC a +5 Untyped bonus to ALL Wisdom-based skills for 24 hours

If at some point you and your familiar are both rich enough and built this way to afford both wands and feel confident in using UMD, that's potentially a +12 to Sense Motive if you're a half-elf with a third eye, a smart familiar, have sunk ranks into UMD yourself and spend at least 15,250 GP, before adding in any ranks in the skill you've put in over your levels.

[Ryze Kuja]

I remember seeing a Snake Style guide where a guy got some redonkulous Sense Motive, like 70+. Can't seem to find it though. My google fu has failed me on this woeful day.

[David knott 242]

I assume that you already have your race picked out?

One thing you should do is look through the alternate racial traits for your selected race. Several races have ways to give you +2 to Sense Motive. While that is less of a bonus than the free Skill Focus feat that you can get with a half-elf or a human, it would stack with a Skill Focus feat taken later and thus might actually be a better choice in the long run.

[Lelomenia]

Ryze Kuja wrote:

I remember seeing a Snake Style guide where a guy got some redonkulous Sense Motive, like 70+. Can't seem to find it though. My google fu has failed me on this woeful day.

off top of my head,

20 ranks
10 wisdom
10 tears to wine
6 skill focus
4 alertness
5 competence (e.g., Inquisitor’s Monocle)
5 visualization of the mind
3 class skill
2 heroism
2 snake style

Is +67, so average AC of 77.5, but maybe you are thinking of +70 at level 10 or whatever, which would take more work. Challenges with Snake Style (which is amazing) are mostly (1) getting attacked before you enter your style and (2) getting attacked more than once a turn, and not so much a challenge getting excessive Sense Motive bonuses.

[Ryze Kuja]

Lelomenia wrote:

Ryze Kuja wrote:

I remember seeing a Snake Style guide where a guy got some redonkulous Sense Motive, like 70+. Can't seem to find it though. My google fu has failed me on this woeful day.

off top of my head,

20 ranks
10 wisdom
10 tears to wine
6 skill focus
4 alertness
5 competence (e.g., Inquisitor’s Monocle)
5 visualization of the mind
3 class skill
2 heroism
2 snake style

Is +67, so average AC of 77.5, but maybe you are thinking of +70 at level 10 or whatever, which would take more work. Challenges with Snake Style (which is amazing) are mostly (1) getting attacked before you enter your style and (2) getting attacked more than once a turn, and not so much a challenge getting excessive Sense Motive bonuses.

Yeah it was something like that. I also remember he was using MoMS Monk with Crane and Snake, and with the Combat Style Master feat so that he could have Snake Style up as a Free Action, and even have it during Surprise Rounds. It was pretty cool.

[Chell Raighn]

David knott 242 wrote:

I assume that you already have your race picked out?

One thing you should do is look through the alternate racial traits for your selected race. Several races have ways to give you +2 to Sense Motive. While that is less of a bonus than the free Skill Focus feat that you can get with a half-elf or a human, it would stack with a Skill Focus feat taken later and thus might actually be a better choice in the long run.

Suli... and Negotiator is a base ratios trait giving +2 to sense motive and diplomacy...

But anyways... with some of the suggestions from last night I’ve got a plan that will put me at a bonus equal to my AC... which atleast guarantees that I can bump up my AC every time I use the ability.

Originally I wanted to avoid level dips altogether, but I’m going to take a 4 level dip into samurai from 6th-9th now... it delays a few things with my build but the only thing I actually loose is one bonus combat feat that Ididnt have a plan for anyways...

[Ryze Kuja]

Found it! Click here for +100 Sense Motive

From above link:

"Sense Motive is really easy though.

Skill Focus (Sense Motive) for +3/+6

Any number of Sense Motive traits, like Survivor for +1

Snake Style for +2, also to use Sense Motive as your AC.

Street Smarts or Alertness for +2/+4, depending on if you want to go in different feat directions (Street Smarts leads to Measure Foe and Sense Relationships while Alertness leads to Uncanny Alertness for another +1)

Seducer's Bane for a +5 Competence bonus.

Elongated Cranium: Sagittal Elongation for +2.

True Love for another +2/+4

Truth in Wine for +2

Incense of Open Thoughts for +5 Insight (slightly situational, but less situational than some of the other options.

Lenses of the Predator's Gaze for +1

So without any kind of class-based stuff, that's

20 (ranks) + 3 (Class Skill) + 6 (Skill Focus) + 1 (Trait) + 2 (Snake Style) + 5 (Alertness+Uncanny Alertness) + 5 (Seducer's Bane) + 2 (Elongated Cranium) + 4 (True Love) + 2 (Truth in Wine) + 5 (Incense) + 1 (Lenses) = 56

Adding in some spells,

Focused Scrutiny for +10

Tears to Wine for +10 to Wis-based skill checks

That brings it up to a 76 overall. Now, if we want to start bringing classes into the mix, we can get this:

1-levels of Paladin for Unsanctioned Detection for +10 1/day

As many levels of Phantom Thief Rogue as you want, provided it's more than 3 to add +1/2 level to Sense Motive.

3-levels of Investigator for Expanded Inspiration for +1d6

1-level of Mindchemist for +4 to Wis from the Cognatogen (or +2 to Sense Motive)

1-level of Oracle for Oracular Intuition for +2/+4

Since all of those classes can stack together, the final build would be Paladin 1/Mindchemist 1/Oracle 1/Investigator 3/Phantom Thief 14. Stacking all the effects together we get

76 + 10 (Unsanctioned Detection) + 2 (Cognatogen) + 7 (Phantom Thief) + 4 (Oracular Intuition) + 1d6 = 1d20+99+1d6+Wis

Edit: As an added note, if you take Noble Scion of Peace and the Skill Mastery Advanced Talent you can automatically roll a 13 on the check. This makes the total Sense Motive bonus 112+1d6+Wis.

Of course I'm just assuming that the various +4 feats stack with each other, but considering only Street Smarts explicitly calls it out, I think I'm safe.

And now optional stuff:

Combat Stamina, which allows you to spend 5 stamina to use Snake Style as an AoO.

Divine Fighting Technique (Way of the Patient Strikes) for Wis to Combat Reflexes (This is really just to make it more SAD).

Signature Skill for Sense Motive which lets you read minds.

Wily Warrior allows you to use your Sense Motive ranks in place of your base Will save, which is great for low-Will classes."