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There I was last Sunday night playing my usual Falcon’s hollow gaming group when my wife had gotten irritated with one of the other players. He is 16 and does stupid stuff, and it bothered her to the point she was done for the night. Her tolerance for BS had diminished. I pulled her aside and asked if she wanted me to call it a night. She said no, go ahead and finish but I want to talk to the offending player later out of play. She understands I started this game to get the local younger generation more involved with table top gaming instead of World of Warcrafting all the time.
The offending player is Russ, Russ has died or been almost slain at least four times in the last two sessions. We have been gaming about 2 months and he is on his third character. Russ, currently a gnome bard, is the kind of guy who kicks in the door before checking for traps, looks the ogre bouncer in the eye while he insults its mother and is the first one to drink from the weird evil looking fountain of random effects. This kind of thing is OK for me, because it is easy run a game where the players are naïve. However, smarter, more cautious players suffer at the hands to the actions of the chaotic neutral players. Russ also doesn’t know how to play a bard. He is new and I needed to get him involved in reading the Beta rulebook… kids for some reason have gotten away from reading, unless its Facebook/MySpace or texting on their phones.
So, that evening, Russ’s gnome bard found himself in the Silver Bullete bar in Oldfen. Not even a month ago, He and a friend had fled that same bar after a fatal bar brawl which landed him in Falcon’s hollow as a refuge. When he fled, he was playing Lem, the halfling bard iconic pregen. The party was just finishing the module D0 Hollow’s last hope, and decided to venture to Oldfen to get better prices on their loot. I had mentioned to the players that Russ’s character was getting a lot of weird looks. A simple diplomacy check told the players of local things going on and that the guards were looking for a human swordsman and a short musical bard responsible for the death of citizen. His widow had put up a reward of 5 gold for any information on them. Russ did not catch on but the other player’s understood why the tavern goers were giving Russ the weird looks. One man bought Russ a drink, asked him where he hailed from and introduced himself prompting Russ to do the same. Russ replied and the man said “tis shame, I was hoping you were the famous Lem” and Russ said without thinking “ooooooh, that IS me, my middle name is Lem”
The guards were called as the other players were trying to get to Russ, but it was too late. Most of the patrons in the bar had known the man slain and were not letting him get away. Russ’s character was hauled off. Russ says “ I will wait till they put me in jail then I will use my escape artist skill or maybe I will kill the guards now and these peasants will all learn to fear me”. The other players were shaking their heads.
I reach and grab the Gamemastery Map Pack:Villiage where cartographer Cory Macourek was nice enough to include a gallows map and I placed Russ’s character on it with the two guards and the captain arresting him. The captain reads off the charges. The penalty for murder was death by hanging. Russ, hands and feet bound with noose around his neck was asked “Do you have any final wishes?”. I paused the game as the other players were positioning themselves to pull a Robin Hood like rescue.
I looked Russ in the eye and said as a GM “This is a bad situation Russ. Your hands and feet tied,yet you still are not helpless. You still have the ability to speak and as a bard, that may be all that you need. You get one action and only one before the captain uses his readied action to pull the lever. I suggest to you, take a few minutes to read your class out of the handbook and look for anything that may help you stay alive. Depending on your roleplaying I will give you a circumstance bonus to your next roll. Once you have made an action and rolled the dice that is it.” Everything got quiet. Russ was scarred. I left the table a minute to let him read.
When I got back, Russ tells me he has the Fascinate ability and tells me he is going to use his action to try to fascinate the captain with a wild tale of Cayden Cailean. Roleplaying, he spins a tale of unbelievable proportions going to the nth degree lying and making up stuff about how Cayden single handedly killed eight dragons with an enchanted tankard. The tale lasts over 10 minutes of real time. I made him roll the dice giving him a +4 circumstance bonus to his perform check (+3) and told him the DC was a 15. I was impressed but I guessed he had help coming up with the story. Still, it was good.
He rolled an 8 and sighed. It was just enough for the captain to relax his grip from the lever. Within moments a female voice from the crowd could be heard “That is not him.” An auburn hair woman pushed her way through to the gallows. “During the last few days my husband and I spent together, he told me it was a halfling who stabbed him, not a gnome. This little one is not his murderer. I would see him freed.”
Russ’s character was let down and apologized to. Russ told me later he had a great time and that he will study what his character can do.
I am very disappointed. I was looking forward to reading a story about how you and your buddies put some idiot into a wet cell or something. Instead, I read something about a guy learning his lesson.
Boo! Hiss!
;-)
To be serious for a moment, while I did think you kicked some idiot out of your game for being an insufferable jerk (something I did once or twice), I do like how Russ was growing into the role of roleplayer.
It did sound weird that he was bad enough to make your wife call it a day - he didn't really sound like an ass, just like someone with ADD.
It did sound weird that he was bad enough to make your wife call it a day - he didn't really sound like an ass, just like someone with ADD.
You mean like a typical 16-year old male?
Just a couple of points having had similar experiences in my campaigns over the years.
1) Be careful of mixing alignments of wildly varying types. Be careful of mixing chaotic neutral alignments with anything unless you have confidence in the ability of the player to not make a shambles of things.
2) If one player is causing your other players grief, do something about it as a DM. Much like you did in the above situation, let them know that what they are "thinking about doing" (even if they have stated it you as a DM have the power to say "hold on a second") is not very bright and could have serious repercussions. If they are forgetting key pieces of information, let them have a roll of the dice to see if they remember things that might cause them to change their actions.
3) Give players a second chance, as you did above. But if this had been going on for months of playing (on a regular basis) and there was no improvement before now, my other players would have either throttled me or throttled the misbehaving player. Either way, that type of disruptive behavior should not be tolerated if efforts to curtail it have been made.
Okay, down off my soapbox. =)
I've had very chaotic people play in my campaigns before, so I know how disruptive they can be. Good intentions aside, you have the enjoyment of the greater party to look after, not just the "look at me!" enjoyment of one player at the table. /salute!
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To be serious for a moment, while I did think you kicked some idiot out of your game for being an insufferable jerk (something I did once or twice), I do like how Russ was growing into the role of roleplayer.
It did sound weird that he was bad enough to make your wife call it a day - he didn't really sound like an ass, just like someone with ADD.
Russ is definately 16 and does tend to speak before he thinks. His "quick to leap before looking" has been going on the last month and the group has responded to his actions by selling off his corpse to a gravedigger for payment in identifying magical items instead of having his previous character raised.
Your companions can sometimes be more cruel than the GM.
I am an optimist and hope that Russ will soon learn to be a bit more cautious. The energy level of younger people add a certain synergy to an older group of players. If this continues, I will have to ask him to leave the table for the other player's sake.
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1) Be careful of mixing alignments of wildly varying types. Be careful of mixing chaotic neutral alignments with anything unless you have confidence in the ability of the player to not make a shambles of things.
I have never had a problem with alignments of characters causing havok. I tell the players before the session the rules on interparty conflict. Roleplaying and banter are encouraged. Interparty fighting is not allowed unless both players can do so without keeping a grudge. All rolls are in the open, even the GM's. I dont like using GM screens. I have never had a player feel I was unfair to them. Dice rolls in public come at a price and the GM sometimes has the Dragon miss a Will save, but the overall story feels more dynamic and surreal.
2) If one player is causing your other players grief, do something about it as a DM. Much like you did in the above situation, let them know that what they are "thinking about doing" (even if they have stated it you as a DM have the power to say "hold on a second") is not very bright and could have serious repercussions. If they are forgetting key pieces of information, let them have a roll of the dice to see if they remember things that might cause them to change their actions.
I agree with you. If there is a behavior problem, first, I try to solve it in game and as a last resort, away from the table.
3) Give players a second chance, as you did above. But if this had been going on for months of playing (on a regular basis) and there was no improvement before now, my other players would have either throttled me or throttled the misbehaving player. Either way, that type of disruptive behavior should not be tolerated if efforts to curtail it have been made.
Russ is 100% better than his first game. He also has 2 friends at the table trying to help him become a better player. My wife, is just more of a goal oriented person who plays to win.
I'd feel weird without a screen, I like to have piles of my-eyes-only notes.
I like your party conflict rules, they're more or less the same thing my group assumes.
That's a bad situation to be in, significant other too annoyed to keep playing, means you're stuck between DM and beau instincts. That alone would make me have some very serious words with the other player, post game.
Awesome! I like that tale of a tale. Russ is going to be a Gaming Somebody someday.
These 16 year olds? Their brains are hardwired for risk. I suspect there's something more that your wife doesn't like about Russ. It may even be just a Massive Style Conflict. (These happen.) I suggest next time that you plunk her and Russ down together and say "I heard X about you and Y about you. Can we work this out?" Then let them talk. Think of them as two kids. Heh.
Call me a nazi, but -this- is precisely the reason why I cherrypick my players rather than inviting just anyone to my gaming tables. Radically different playstyles will inevitably lead to conflict, first IC-ly, then OOC-ly. Been there, done that, bought the shirt, now I make sure of not inviting anyone to my tables unless his style is compatible with that of the gaming table, and I can't think of any worse mix than a goals-oriented player and a Knights of the Dinner Table reject.
The fact that he's learning to roleplay doesn't mean he'll stop playing "captain fratboy" characters, just that he'll go about his outlaw business in a more gracious way. The fact that he has died two times already tells me you haven't been exactly pampering him, but the fact that he keeps reinciding tells me the message hasn't been clear enough. Don't expect him to understand subtlety, spell things out for him. I played at a hack&slash gaming table for about 6 years and, while they learned to roleplay properly, the only times they didn't play like a carbon copy of KoDT were the few times I GM'd for them... those few times sure, they played -superbly-, but only because I was specific regarding my expectations for the game, but as soon as the regular GM took over again they reverted just as fast to The Fratboy Patrol, because that GM -lets them-.
Sure, some players can change, some can evolve, I just no longer have the patience for teaching. Again, I'm sure I sounded like a -complete nazi- and a self-righteous @ss to many, but I prefer gaming tables where we're all on the same wavelenght. Sure, I've GMed comedy games too, but everything has its place, the difference between "funny" and "disruptive" is still quite clear.
Dogbert, you complete nazi... LMAO JK!
I owe you a few more AP CotCT pictures, I've been slacking.
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When it comes to social interractions, why would anyone take him remotely serious? I have difficulty getting people to take a gnome/kobold/goblin serious when I'm being deadly serious, let alone when I'm just being whimsical or chaotic.
Hind-sight is always better than Fore-sight, but I would have NPCs stop taking so much notice of a character that is of a race stereo-typically "prankster" nature and seeing it for what it is... another gnome/kobold/goblin just in off the short wagon. Something similar to a 5 year old wielding a greatsword, you have more concern for their safety than your own.
I'm thinking if a gnome stood up and declared that his "middle name" was the same as the murderer's first name they might be offended and show him to the back alley for some thorough beatings.
Just be glad he's playing a "small" race and not a larger/stronger one like orc, 1/2orc, goliath, etc. He's generally only causing himself problems(death) at the moment, with minor inconvenience to the party.(where to sell a corpse) A more powerful race could lead to potential TPK in the wrong hands/ big mouth.
From the story you've told, I'm glad to see that the other players were kind enough to help him with his back-peddling at the gallows. If he did manage to pull all that from deep within HIS bowels, then that's pretty damn amazing.
Hmmm, wife vs. neighborhood kid = wife FTW... pretty sure about this one!
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Lots of stuff . . .
It actually appears that he isn't learning the hard way at all but instead the much more patient and understanding way, kudos to you and yours. The hard way would be "go back to playing WOW and hit us up again in about 5 years."
You seem to be doing an outstanding job. GMs like you are the future of the hobby.
Tam
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That's a bad situation to be in, significant other too annoyed to keep playing, means you're stuck between DM and beau instincts. That alone would make me have some very serious words with the other player, post game.
The wife knows i dont like to play favorites. I try to separate my GMing from my marriage. She agreed to that.
That being said, I once killed off a girlfriend a long long time ago. All my friends were in shock. To me , it was just a game. They got her raised and it made for some interesting roleplaying situations with her religeon. After the game, she wouldnt cuddle with me for 2 weeks saying only "but... you killed me?"
Now a days I often cringe when I roll a Threat against my wife. Odds are in my favor she wont die. Most monsters dont have improved critical and natural attacks only crit on a natural 20...could happen though.
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I suggest next time that you plunk her and Russ down together and say "I heard X about you and Y about you. Can we work this out?" Then let them talk. Think of them as two kids. Heh.
Its not that simple, the wife plays great. She has a problem with Russ just doing things without thinking about it first. We are making a rule for Russ that if he says it, it happens. No backing up. maybe this will get him back in line.
I owe you a few more AP CotCT pictures, I've been slacking.
It's ok, we retook CoCT just recently and spoilers would be bad, take your time. =)
I game with my wife as well, and if I´m the DM, I just treat her character like everybody elses character. In the D&D group (presently in a hiatus due to my studies) I am DMing, she plays a knight and has been close to death more than once. Up to now, the group always managed to save dying characters just in time (they have a powerful cleric), but it has been a close call in several occasions. I would not save her just because she is my wife. It´s a game, after all, and she better deal with it as a game. (Besides, they are at level 8 or 9 now, so resurrection would be possible.)
Stefan
I have never had a problem with alignments of characters causing havok.
I have. Though honestly, it's more a case of player alignment causing havok.
I've had CN characters and LE characters in "regular" groups without problem.
But right now, one CN half-orc barbarian in a game I play in annoys me. It's not the barbarian's alignment, it's the player being a jerk.
My wife, is just more of a goal oriented person who plays to win.
Which qualifies as another problem player in my book. Play to win is not for RPGs, at least not for me.
Which qualifies as another problem player in my book. Play to win is not for RPGs, at least not for me.
My wife, is just more of a goal oriented person who plays to win.
Depends on what "winning" means in a RPG context. You obviously can´t win like a game of chess or monopoly.
Stefan
Which qualifies as another problem player in my book. Play to win is not for RPGs, at least not for me.
My wife, is just more of a goal oriented person who plays to win.
Depends on what "winning" means in a RPG context. You obviously can´t win like a game of chess or monopoly.
Stefan
I always win my sessions.
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I have. Though honestly, it's more a case of player alignment causing havok. But right now, one CN half-orc barbarian in a game I play in annoys me. It's not the barbarian's alignment, it's the player being a jerk.
Oh, I agree PLAYER alignments can cause issues. Personality conflicts do arise and kind of like magnets, people click together or tend to repulse each other.
My wife, is just more of a goal oriented person who plays to win.
Which qualifies as another problem player in my book. Play to win is not for RPGs, at least not for me.
She is not an aggressive sort at the table, she just likes to get into the story and not goof off as much as some others do. We had a busy weekend with the family over the 4th earlier so I think this also contributed to the "less tolerance for BS" behavior. She was just tired.
I have. Though honestly, it's more a case of player alignment causing havok. But right now, one CN half-orc barbarian in a game I play in annoys me. It's not the barbarian's alignment, it's the player being a jerk.
Oh, I agree PLAYER alignments can cause issues. Personality conflicts do arise and kind of like magnets, people click together or tend to repulse each other.
My wife, is just more of a goal oriented person who plays to win.
She is not an aggressive sort at the table, she just likes to get into the story and not goof off as much as some others do. We had a busy weekend with the family over the 4th earlier so I think this also contributed to the "less tolerance for BS" behavior. She was just tired.
Which qualifies as another problem player in my book. Play to win is not for RPGs, at least not for me.
Time management seems to be my focus when I'm playing. Especially since we usually game on a weeknight. I relax more on our occasional weekend games. I can understand your wife's POV.
Good discussion.
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Great story, I like. But just wanted to comment on this:
He is new and I needed to get him involved in reading the Beta rulebook… kids for some reason have gotten away from reading, unless its Facebook/MySpace or texting on their phones.
I'm British but people say the same things here.
The people who say it tend to have been readers themselves, and friends with readers. They have forgotten the non-readers in their teenage peer group because they spent little time with them.
Literacy levels in the UK are better than they have been since credible records began, even with rising levels of immigration.
I teach English and have in the past year encountered ten year olds reading Agatha Christie and 16 year olds who have read more of the canon than I have.
Sadly I have also had to teach the alphabet to 12 year olds but it is these students who are in the minority.
Modern teenagers learn to read a broader range of texts but an RPG rulebook is an unwieldy text that I would expect most people to balk at until they understood the value of reading it. It is not as immediately compelling or enticing as a novel.
Happily you did show Russ the value of reading the Beta and now he will read more of this kind of text.
The kids are alright, mostly.
I was impressed but I guessed he had help coming up with the story. Still, it was good.
Doesn't matter if he had help at all. That's what taking a neophyte gamer, particularly a kid, under your wing is all about. Awesome table story.
Sometimes it's better for kids to play with other kids. Let them work out their wacky energy with people with the same kind of energy. But in the absence of that, you simply have to have more patience, more reminders to think things through.
We are making a rule for Russ that if he says it, it happens. No backing up.
You do not see that as counter-productive?
Great story, I like. But just wanted to comment on this:
He is new and I needed to get him involved in reading the Beta rulebook… kids for some reason have gotten away from reading, unless its Facebook/MySpace or texting on their phones.I'm British but people say the same things here.
The people who say it tend to have been readers themselves, and friends with readers. They have forgotten the non-readers in their teenage peer group because they spent little time with them.
Literacy levels in the UK are better than they have been since credible records began, even with rising levels of immigration.
I teach English and have in the past year encountered ten year olds reading Agatha Christie and 16 year olds who have read more of the canon than I have.
Sadly I have also had to teach the alphabet to 12 year olds but it is these students who are in the minority.
Modern teenagers learn to read a broader range of texts but an RPG rulebook is an unwieldy text that I would expect most people to balk at until they understood the value of reading it. It is not as immediately compelling or enticing as a novel.
Happily you did show Russ the value of reading the Beta and now he will read more of this kind of text.
The kids are alright, mostly.
Thank you, as having relatively recently become 21, I think important that that kind of feeling is addressed. Every generation thinks that the next is becoming stupider. Its actually a natural thing, but so is racism (see schemas) so its something people should actually think about.
It might help bridge the generation gap a little.
I've taught dungeons and dragons to 4th graders, including several who were off their ADD meds "as an experiment."
My suggestion is that before you have the action happen, you summarize what the young player is having his character do and say, "Do I have that right? That's what you want to do?" Having had a chance to think about it, they'll either decide something different or you now know that they totally think it's cool.
Now, if they do something you think is stupid, DON'T punish it with a combat or a drama. The response should be a low comedy, wherever possible. Players who act without thinking in the kick-down-the-door subcategory are uncomfortable being the comic relief. They'll change their play to be as heroic as they can make it after 2-3 such mistakes. For example, one kid started thinking when a cat almost killed his heroic fighter due to a lack of thought on his part.
Also, you're going to have to tell your wife to chill out. Any game featuring players with radically different life experience levels is bound to have situations like this one. She needs to have "beer and pretzels" type expectations. She's being unrealistic otherwise.
Some good stuff.
Sounds like you were patient and took the time to work with the player. I'm a little disappointed at the sentiment that the wife was a "problem player"--not everyone meshes, and the wife's wish to finish the game, be patient, and /then/ address the issue is a definite plus...especially after having suffered through this other problem behavior for months, potentially at her own house. ;)
There is an advantage to playing games, too, in someone's house--it adds a degree of expectation, I think. "This is my house, you will show others here, and me, a measure of respect." It's a level separate from a gaming store, as much as those are enjoyable.
Now, I don't know this is true, it's just something I wanted to bring up in an indirect way: the possibility at playing at someone's home, and whether that automatically encourages certain expectations.
And also, congrats again. You're probably someone we could all take lessons from.
I feel really bad for Russ. Being on your 3rd character in only 2 months must really suck. No one likes to die. Personally, I would have taken the hint and left your table by now. The way you describe things, you're picking on him because you don't like his gaming style. His gaming style (kick down the door) isn't wrong, it's just different, but you (and your gaming group) are punishing him for it.
And yes, your players are mean for not raising his last character. If you and your players don't want him at your table, stop being p***ies about it and just stop inviting him instead of killing his character all of the time when he doesn't comform to "how you think he should play".
If you're DMing to young people, they want the game to move faster than older players. This is good! Sometimes older players move the game along too dam slow. Checking every door, searching everywhere, and being too cautious in general slows down the game, makes it more boring, predictable and formulaic. As DM, I assume a rogue is checking for these things all of the time anyway, just to speed the game up.
Anyway, back to the situation. To me it sounds like you executed your plan (of mistaken identity) so quickly that he didn't have the chance to talk himself out of it or escape until you forced him to "roll of die". That's not cool.
If that wasn't the case and you allowed more than a "roll or die", how in hell couldn't a bard to talk himself out of a situation of mistaken identity? That's their forté! Also you didn't even give him a trial? Or allow a chance to escape late at night? Or bribe a constable? Were none of your players nice enough to coach this new player?
Also, how did he have a +3 performance check when Bards need 3 skill ranks in Performance to get the Fascinate ability and Charisma is perhaps the most important stat for a bard? He didn't even have a 12 charisma (that would have given him +4 performance)? Your calculation make no sense and it's the DMs job to help players calculate basic stats. Also, Fascinate only last 1 round per level, not 10 minutes. Instead of using Deus Ex Machina to save his life, wouldn't it have been better to let him talk (bluff, diplomacy) his way out of the situation? And if he didn't come up with the idea (to use diplomacy or bluff), maybe guide him a bit?
I also don't understand why your wife is irritated. What did you expect when you allowed younger players (or strangers) to sign up to your game? New players are obviously not going to be like the gaming group you've spent 20+ years getting comfortable with.
When I DM to my little cousins (age 8-14), I don't expect the same type of game as when I game to my friends (32+). If one of my friends were to join my "young person's table" and was expecting the same kind of game, it's my friend's expectations that are the problem, not my cousins.
As DM, your job is to make the table FUN for your players. Maybe Russ wants a heroic game where the main characters are heroic, insult ogre bouncers, drink from magical fountains, and get away with it most of the time?
Sorry, I'm sure you were looking for more support than this but the problem isn't Russ, the problem is you (DM) and your gaming group. You've met someone with a different gaming style (kick down the door) and new and different ideas than your own, and instead of welcoming him into your gaming group and somewhat adapting, you've been beating him up, killing off his characters, kicking him when he's down (selling his body instead of raising him), and probably not being very nice to him at the gaming table (since most unliked players are treated poorly).
There is nothing wrong with his gaming style and there is nothing wrong with your gaming style, however usually it's the DM that adapts to his players, not the other way around. After all, who is the game for, you or the players? It has to be a little bit of both I think.
I've also played with impulsive players before, I don't find them disruptive, I find them hilarious. Some of our funniest gaming moments have come from impulsive gamers.... (not the old crotchety, overly safe ones. yawn).
Anyway, good luck at your gaming table and hopefully everyone is a little more flexible, forgiving, understanding and kind in the future.
I feel really bad for Russ. Being on your 3rd character in only 2 months must really suck. No one likes to die. Personally, I would have taken the hint and left your table by now. The way you describe things, you're picking on him because you don't like his gaming style. His gaming style (kick down the door) isn't wrong, it's just different, but you (and your gaming group) is punishing him for it.
And yes, your players are mean for not raising his last character. If you and your players don't want him at your table, stop being p***ies about it and just stop inviting him instead of killing his character all of the time when he doesn't comform to "how you think he should play".
If you're DMing to young people, they want the game to move faster than older players. This is good! Sometimes older players move the game along too dam slow. Checking every door, searching everywhere, and being too cautious in general slows down the game, makes it more boring, predictable and formulaic. As DM, I assume a rogue is checking for these things all of the time anyway, just to speed the game up.
Would it amuse you if I told you young DMs kill off older players because they take too much dam time to do ANYTHING at all in a game? Same thing, reversed situation. I find it deliciously ironic myself since you're doing the same thing.
Anyway, back to the situation. To me it sounds like you executed your plan (of mistaken identity) so quickly that he didn't have the chance to talk himself out of it or escape until you forced him to "roll of die". That's not cool.
If that wasn't the case and you allowed more than a "roll or die", how in hell couldn't a bard to talk himself out of a situation of mistaken identity? That's their forté! Also you didn't even give him a trial? Or allow a chance to escape late at night? Or bribe a constable? Were none of your players nice enough to coach this new player?
Also, how did he have a +3 performance check when Bards need 3 skill ranks in Performance to get the Fascinate ability and...
...wow. That's a lot of vitriol. :) I just...
Well, wow. :)
We are making a rule for Russ that if he says it, it happens. No backing up.
You do not see that as counter-productive?
I'm thinking that as well. Better to confront a weird action with "You sure about that?". I think he's more likely to pick up the clue that he's being impulsive again in that case than if you just let the dice fall where they may.
His gaming style (kick down the door) isn't wrong, it's just different, but you (and your gaming group) is punishing him for it.
That game style can most definitely be wrong if it has no repercussions. If you're the baddest thing in the dungeon, then it's fine, but if stealth is ever required then you will have to suffer the consequences of your unwise decision to kick in the door. Sadly, the rest of the party will, too.
If you're DMing to young people, they want the game to move faster than older players. This is good!
Some of us older players want the game to move fast, too, you know. Generally speaking, the DM controls the speed of the adventure.
Young players, if they're respectful of the others at the table, can be great to have around. As KaeYoss said, it's the alignment of the person playing the character that makes more of an impact than the alignment of the character. My troublesome CN characters have always...and I mean always...had CN players behind them. Their tenure at my game table (with one exception) is a short one.
To me it sounds like Russ was doing whatever he wanted whenever he wanted to get his jollies. That's not being respectful to the rest of the group. The DM should do his best to guide the player into working with the group. If it doesn't happen, then the player should be asked to leave. It sounds like Russ was let out on a long leash before being reeled back in somewhat. Hopefully he will improve, but only time will tell.
At least that's my take on it. /salute!
Was it explained to Russ that his behavior was disruptive or was he just called stupid?
Wow. Everyone is wrong but Russ. Wow.
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I've taught dungeons and dragons to 4th graders, including several who were off their ADD meds "as an experiment."
I find that awesome. My wife is a teacher also.
My suggestion is that before you have the action happen, you summarize what the young player is having his character do and say, "Do I have that right? That's what you want to do?" Having had a chance to think about it, they'll either decide something different or you now know that they totally think it's cool.
I agree with you if Russ was a bit younger. My daughter plays, she is 10, and there is several times i go over her options or suggest ideas. With Russ, it has been a lot of the same but for whatever reason, Russ just tends to take the hardest way out of a situation. I dont think Russ is a bad player, just a young player. Also, Russ sees himself as a man, and I think if I nudged him along he would be offended.
Also, you're going to have to tell your wife to chill out.
Are you trying to destroy my love life :) Seriously, she is cool. She has already dealt with him for 2 months of this behavior.
His gaming style (kick down the door) isn't wrong, it's just different, but you (and your gaming group) are punishing him for it.
And yes, your players are mean for not raising his last character.
You get what you give, if the team was all agreeing on a plan only so he goes and sabotages it in an instant, putting not only himself, but the whole mission (and perhaps the team) at risk, then the team will just say "kick the chair", let him die, and move on... cause and effect.
Were none of your players nice enough to coach this new player?
If it had been my character whose plan he ruined? I'd have killed him myself. Roleplay is a team sport, and in addition to the game's written rules, there's also the non-written rules of coexistence, if you play ball then your team will be there for you. Unintentional fumbles can be forgiven, yes, your team is there to show you the ropes and help you pick up the pace, but blatant disregard for your team's wellfare and sociopathic behavior? I'm quite positive that this is the main reason ganking was introduced to tabletop gaming.
Sorry, I'm sure you were looking for more support than this but the problem isn't Russ, the problem is you (DM) and your gaming group. You've met someone with a different gaming style (kick down the door) and new and different ideas than your own, and instead of welcoming him into your gaming group and somewhat adapting, you've been beating him up, killing off his characters, kicking him when he's down (selling his body instead of raising him), and probably not being very nice to him at the gaming table (since most unliked players are treated poorly).
So you're saying the whole gaming table must adapt to the new kid's style instead of the other way around? Let's take it from a human resource management aproach:
Let's say you're chief at a place where a new kid is recently hired. There's this problem, though, the new kid has his own way to do things at work, a way that's completely incompatible with everyone else's. On top of that, everyone -hates him-, they won't stop picking on him and sabotaging his work. Other than the new kid, every other worker at the place has been with you for several years, there's great synergy and bonds between you all, and together you produce results. What do you do? Try and change the way things are at work AND put a strain in the relationship between you and your workers? Or instead telling the new kid that he can either play ball and put on the team's shirt or find a better place?
Some things are wrong, and some things are right, but that won't change the fact that reality is dictated by the consensus. Back in my old hack&slash gaming table, my strategic gaming style was wrong and a nuisiace; likewise, in Angryspirit's table (and mine), the likes of El Ravager are unwelcome.
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I feel really bad for Russ. Being on your 3rd character in only 2 months must really suck. No one likes to die. Personally, I would have taken the hint and left your table by now. The way you describe things, you're picking on him because you don't like his gaming style. His gaming style (kick down the door) isn't wrong, it's just different, but you (and your gaming group) are punishing him for it.
Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. I am glad Someone sees Russ's perspective and i am not mocking you. I totally agree Russ's style of game is not wrong. Neither are the other players. The number one reason to play is to have fun. Everyone has a diffrent interpretation of what fun is. I do not punish Russ for his style of play. He suffers the damage a trap he triggered on the door he just kicked in because the rogue wasnt given a chance to search for it first. The group suffers being unprepared, unable to cast prepatory spells as Russ rushes into the room of goblins to get the first swing. See my point?
And yes, your players are mean for not raising his last character. If you and your players don't want him at your table, stop being p***ies about it and just stop inviting him instead of killing his character all of the time when he doesn't comform to "how you think he should play".
Interesting. it amazes me how some people can get riled up by a post. Russ is a friend to two of the other gamers. We want him to play. We want him to have fun, but we also want him to "think". Thats all. I guess I should have mentioned when Russ was not able to be raised, my house rule is you can bring in a new character equal to your old exp. I do not make you lose a level when you die. I have never agreed with that rule. Dying in itself is a punishment that places weight on the players mind.
If you're DMing to young people, they want the game to move faster than older players. This is good! Sometimes older players move the game along too dam slow. Checking every door, searching everywhere, and being too cautious in general slows down the game, makes it more boring, predictable and formulaic. As DM, I assume a rogue is checking for these things all of the time anyway, just to speed the game up.
I dont make the players check ever 10' of floor a dungeon with a pole. When it is appropriate, I do passive checks for normal stuff. For something obvious like "The Archway before you is dark with glowing purple runes above it's keystone. The floor at its base is granite, charred and blackened stretching out from the doorway five feet towards you. Even with your torchlight, the illumination seems barred from entering the room beyond" at this point, its up to the players to tell me what they intend to do. Can you guess Russ's action?
Anyway, back to the situation. To me it sounds like you executed your plan (of mistaken identity) so quickly that he didn't have the chance to talk himself out of it or escape until you forced him to "roll of die". That's not cool.
The conversation he had plenty of time to react. He was betting if he said he was the other bard, he would be infamous. From the bar to gallows was hurried along though and i gave him about 10 minutes to think of how he would get out of the situation.
If that wasn't the case and you allowed more than a "roll or die", how in hell couldn't a bard to talk himself out of a situation of mistaken identity? That's their forté! Also you didn't even give him a trial? Or allow a chance to escape late at night? Or bribe a constable? Were none of your players nice enough to coach this new player? Also, how did he have a +3 performance check when Bards need 3 skill ranks in Performance to get the Fascinate ability and Charisma is perhaps the most important stat for a bard? He didn't even have a 12 charisma (that would have given him +4 performance)? Your calculation make no sense and it's the DMs job to help players calculate basic stats. Also,...
Page 18, second paragraph of the Beta book states that "A bard with 1 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use his music or poetics to cause one or more creatures to become facinated with him." He is first level, he has a +2 for his Charisma and a +1 rank... which gives him +3. Which book are you reading from? oh nevermind, the point is, Russ chose his character, created his stats and after i told him he is more suited to a fighter type still wanted the bard cause "He looks cool", honestly, I blame Wayne Reynolds... if Wayne drew an Iconic carebear... Russ would have played it.
thanks for the reply
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Was it explained to Russ that his behavior was disruptive or was he just called stupid?
No, Russ has never been called stupid. The other players have gotten onto him saying "What are you doing? That is stupid!" but i will not tolerate people being rude at the table. As characters, maybe but not as players.
We are making a rule for Russ that if he says it, it happens. No backing up.
You do not see that as counter-productive?
I agree, I think this train-of-thought is extremely counter-productive.
Which has me also partially agreeing with Jason S, just uninvite him from the group and be done with it. Don't continue to provide more reason for your group to cry and moan if you're going to take him ULTRA-LITERAL to the Nth DEGREE, especially if you're just going to backpeddle everything you posted when people provide suggestions.
If anything you're only provoking the outlandish antics because he will know he can avert all attention to himself at the drop of a hat. I know I would, especially playing a gnome... "I'm bored, I jump up and urinate on the table! Then bow festively as I refill my party's mugs with golden gnomish goodness." Russ, you can borrow that!
Wow. Russ learned to play the hard way. I wasn't like that when I first started playing. The one thing annoying(if it even was) was wondering if my longsword would do less damage to the giant bug than my warhammer(my reasoning was blade vs hard shell). Glad to see a teen learning how to role-play. My advice: kill all the Pcs!!! Wait... my DM was showing, nevermind.
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I agree, I think this train-of-thought is extremely counter-productive.Which has me also partially agreeing with Jason S, just uninvite him from the group and be done with it. Don't continue to provide more reason for your group to cry and moan if you're going to take him ULTRA-LITERAL to the Nth DEGREE, especially if you're just going to backpeddle everything you posted when people provide suggestions.
If anything you're only provoking the outlandish antics because he will know he can avert all attention to himself at the drop of a hat. I know I would, especially playing a gnome... "I'm bored, I jump up and urinate on the table! Then bow festively as I refill my party's mugs with golden gnomish goodness." Russ, you can borrow that!
I personally dont think the "if you say it, it happens" is going to work. The players want it to be an agreed upon group rule. One, im not that evil, but two I do agree I need to figure out some middle ground before I lose a potentially lifetime gamer.
hey, dont be giving Russ and new ideas, geesh, he has enough trouble with a koblod king to deal with here in a session or two! :)
Let's take it from a human resource management aproach:
Let's say you're chief at a place where a new kid is recently hired. There's this problem, though, the new kid has his own way to do things at work, a way that's completely incompatible with everyone else's. On top of that, everyone -hates him-, they won't stop picking on him and sabotaging his work. Other than the new kid, every other worker at the place has been with you for several years, there's great synergy and bonds between you all, and together you produce results. What do you do? Try and change the way things are at work AND put a strain in the relationship between you and your workers? Or instead telling the new kid that he can either play ball and put on the team's shirt or find a better place?
First, for some reason I found this whole story just funny as hell... and I'm not sure why. Dogbert, sorry you make me laugh when you're being serious, lol. XD
Second, I say you fire them all and outsource the game to India via play-by-post.
Page 18, second paragraph of the Beta book states that "A bard with 1 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use his music or poetics to cause one or more creatures to become facinated with him." He is first level, he has a +2 for his Charisma and a +1 rank... which gives him +3. Which book are you reading from?
I'm a little confused all around. If it were a Perform check then he would have an additional +3 from it being a class skill. But I didn't think there was any Perform roll involved in using Fascinate. It has a minimum Perform rank requirement, but it's a use of bardic music. They get a will save DC 10+1/2 bard level+ Cha. So the DC would be 13. No checks involved. Unless I'm reading that page wrong. *head hurts*
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I'm a little confused all around. If it were a Perform check then he would have an additional +3 from it being a class skill. But I didn't think there was any Perform roll involved in using Fascinate. It has a minimum Perform rank requirement, but it's a use of bardic music. They get a will save DC 10+1/2 bard level+ Cha. So the DC would be 13. No checks involved. Unless I'm reading that page wrong. *head hurts*
Nice catch on the +3 class skill, I missed that. I will need to look back over his sheet and see if he missed that on all his class skills.
So you're saying the whole gaming table must adapt to the new kid's style instead of the other way around?
In a couple words: Hell, yes. But it's not what you think. They don't have to play like him, but if they want the hobby passed on to the next generation, then they must adapt their playing style to allow more patience, more mentorship. Sounds like, for the most part, they've done at least some of that, particularly from AngrySpirit. But I think they're going to have to drop the "If he says it, he did it" that they're pushing for.
Dogbert, sorry you make me laugh when you're being serious, lol. XD
lol that's me, the bringer of happiness. =D
Second, I say you fire them all and outsource the game to India via play-by-post.
How did you guess? That's why all my games are online through OpenRPG now (that, and my Mage table splitting to different corners of the globe each). =P
We are making a rule for Russ that if he says it, it happens. No backing up.
You do not see that as counter-productive?
Indeed, if you ask me, that's rather punishing everyone else in the group for El Ravager's actions, and a TPK waiting to happen.
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AngrySpirit, I have mentored many new players, young and old, and I think that so far you are taking the right approach.
However, be certain to reward his good behavior as you punish his bad, either with an interesting event, bonus experience for good thinking, or a nice, shiny item.
As a Gamemaster, you have a carrot and a stick. Use both liberally, but fairly, especially on a younger player, and you will have a lifelong gamer.
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You get what you give, if the team was all agreeing on a plan only so he goes and sabotages it in an instant, putting not only himself, but the whole mission (and perhaps the team) at risk, then the team will just say "kick the chair", let him die, and move on... cause and effect.
I've seen some parties get into a "turtle" habit where they want to just avoid conflict entirely. It will take another player doing something (not necessarily stupid) to get them moving again. Its not a game anymore when the characters sit around worrying all the time that they'll die or lose their favorite magic items. So, just to point out the opposite end of the spectrum, I've seen that kind of player save a game.
Let me just preface this with a congratulations for AngrySpirit. I think he handled the situation quite well (and the way player responded was an eye-opener).
Those who are choosing "sides" on the issue, either advocating kicking "incompatible" players out of the group or saying that everyone else at the table needs to tailor the session around the "new kid" to keep him interested, are both (IMO) missing the point. One of the GM's responsibilities (much like the coach of a sports team) is to develop their players so they improve and work better together (or with others). This can also be considered a general responsibility of all gamers to recruit and mentor new gamers, but the GM usually has the most influence in a particular group.
In the case of Russ, the issue is probably at least partially due to his being 16, an age at which the consideration of actions and consequences is... spotty... in most individuals. There's probably also an element of "teen rebellion" and/or "pushing the envelope" involved with his in-game actions. He sounds as if he has a lot of creativity, which is a plus, and he's capable of learning and changing his play-style, which is something adult players (especially the problem ones) are less likely to do.
AngrySpirit - I bow to you for your patience in gaming with kids. I can't do it and all of the games I run are filled with players 30+ years in age.
Unfortunately, I'm playing some games at Gen Con - it's been 11 years since I went to a gaming con - and I know there will be underage idiots in them. I'm not sure how I will react...we'll see. But I don't tolerate fools very well.
Unfortunately, I'm playing some games at Gen Con - it's been 11 years since I went to a gaming con - and I know there will be underage idiots in them. I'm not sure how I will react...we'll see. But I don't tolerate fools very well.
Our group of 4, attended 3 Pathfinder Society events last year and we were all pleasantly surprised that it was the most fun we had the whole time, other than shopping. I dare say no one in any of our 6-person groups was under 21.
We had an 'ancient' gamer in our NASCRAG group who was hard-of-hearing. In a room of 20+ gaming groups, old age isn't necessarily a win either, though pretty damn funny from time to time when he THOUGHT you said one thing or another.
Unfortunately we will not be attending this year. Good luck and have fun to all of those who are!