Hello all. I have a player in my current campaign playing a rogue. We're a bit short on casters, so he's thinking about multiclassing into bard. I thought it might be nice to give him the option of a feat akin to Daring Outlaw, Daring Warrior, and Swift Hunter from Complete Scoundrel to allow him to synergize his classes a bit more. I'm not thrilled with the current name, but let me know what you think of the mechanics:
Your music continues to inspire though you focus your attentions to other shady pursuits.
Prerequisite: Bardic Music, Sneak Attack +1d6
Benefit: Your bard and rogue levels stack for the purpose of determining extra damage from sneak attack. For example, a 4th level rogue/2nd level bard would deal +3d6 extra damage when making a sneak attack as if he were a 6th level rogue.
Your bard and rogue levels also stack for the purpose of determining your bardic music abilities. This includes both the number of times per day you may use bardic music and for which bardic music abilities you qualify. You must still meet all minimum Perform ranks requirements. For example the 4th level rogue/2nd level bard noted above would be able to use bardic music 6 times per day and would have access to the countersong, fascinate, inspire courage (+1), inspire competence, and suggestion bardic music abilities as if he were a 6th level bard.
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I think I would probably allow the feat to give extra bardic uses per day and increase the bardic performances the character already has, but I would require actual bard levels to get new abilities. So a Bard 7/Rogue 4 would have 11 uses/day and inspire courage +2, but wouldn't yet have inspire greatness.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2012
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I think I would probably allow the feat to give extra bardic uses per day and increase the bardic performances the character already has, but I would require actual bard levels to get new abilities. So a Bard 7/Rogue 4 would have 11 uses/day and inspire courage +2, but wouldn't yet have inspire greatness.
That's an excellent idea.
I've been using the following:
Outlaw Performer
Prerequisites: Sneak attack +2d6, bardic performance.
Benefit: Your rogue levels stack with your bard level for purposed of determining the number of times per day (or rounds per day) you can use your Bardic Performance class features. The performances you know are still determined by your actual bard class level.
Additionally, add half of your bard level (round down) to your number of rogue levels when calculating sneak attack damage (for example, a rogue 3/bard 2 would have sneak attack +2d6, a rogue 3/bard 4 has +3d6, a rogue 3/bard 8 has +4d6, etc.).
Design Notes:
1. As with prestige classes that stack caster level, but don't give new sorcerer bloodline abilities, rogue levels shouldn't give access to new bardic music abilities -- just more uses/day or rounds/day. I'm on the fence about scaling bonuses for inspire courage, etc.
2. IMPORTANT! I've tried feats that allowed full levels to stack for sneak attack damage, and they're all WAY too good for the cost of one feat. NEVER, NEVER allow full stacking for sneak attack!!! Half of that is a far more reasonable maximum.
3. Prereq +2d6 sneak attack forces the recipient of all this gestalt-y goodness to give up 2 more caster levels. That's an important consideration; you never want one feat to create a full gestalt character.
<somewhat off-topic>
With regard to the feat name, I'm suddenly reminded of a series of articles in the April Fool issues of Dragon some years back. They went under the title of "Bard on the Run".
A very well considered feat
This is great! You make some very excellent points with this one - I may just lift it whole hog if'n you don't mind.
This is great! You make some very excellent points with this one - I may just lift it whole hog if'n you don't mind.
Not at all! I love these multiclass feats, and will look up my others as well ("Martial Outlaw" et al.) and post them hopefully tonight.
You should post all your multiclass feats.
If my buddies cancel on our John Wayne movie night, I'll be happy to post them this evening.
Here's another one:
MARTIAL OUTLAW
Prerequisites: Sneak attack +3d6, 1+ levels in fighter
Benefits: Your rogue levels stack with your fighter levels for purposes of determining fighter-only feat prerequisites (for example, a fighter 1/rogue 5 with this feat would be eligible for Weapon Specialization, assuming he/she meets the other prerequisites).
Additionally, you may add half your fighter level to your number of rogue levels when calculating sneak attack damage.
Special: You may select this feat as one of your fighter bonus feats. (And for Pathfinder rules: a rogue may select this feat in place of a rogue talent.)
Design Notes:
1. The level prerequisite benefit seemed fairly worthless in 3.5, but Pathfinder introduces a number of fighter-only feats that make this feat a lot more attractive to fighting fighter/rogues.
2. As before, note that full sneak attack stacking is eschewed in favor of half-progression. A D&D rogue 5/fighter 8 with this feat has +5d6 sneak attack damage and a bunch of bonus feats, and is a fairly good simulation of a 13th level Arcana Evolved "Unfettered."
3. Straight fighters get a lot of feats, so there is legitimate concern for abuse in that respect (spending one feat to gain, in essence, free sneak attack progression). The +3d6 sneak attack prerequisite requires 5 levels in rogue, however, which means that fighter is perpetually behind by +2 on his or her BAB. In short, making the prerequisite +3d6 instead of +1d6 ensures that this feat isn't a "must-have" for otherwise single-classed fighters. (A prerequisite of +2d6 sneak attack is no different in terms of BAB loss than +1d6.)
I like it...the bard rogue one for sure...but I have one comment
How can a singing/playing/dancing bard SNEAK ATTACK anything....Now I can see how he can flank... catch someone flat footed on the first round...but making that much noise is anathema to sneaking...
That said I like the feat itself...but it does seem to have some limits built into it that are inherent to the way bards are played.. I am no way casting a dispersion on the feat itself...this is just something I know my group would mention so I thought I'd throw it out there...Asmodeus doesn't need an advocate but hey its better than a FLAME
I'm also interested in seeing more of your Gestalts...Pathfinderized
How can a singing/playing/dancing bard SNEAK ATTACK anything...
Nowehere does the feat say you need to be using a bardic performance at the same time you're using your sneak attack ability.
Here are a few more. The feat qualification thing may seem a bit repetitive, but all fighters have going for them in 3.5 are feats, and the idea of a feat providing more feats is just plain wrong. Pathfinder, however, offers some minor numberical bonuses to fighters; suggested changes for Pathfinder games are indicated as shown.
Ascetic Warrior (3.5)
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike)
Benefit: You may freely multiclass between the fighter and monk classes. Your fighter levels stack with your monk level to determine your unarmed strike damage.
Additionally, your monk levels stack with your fighter levels for purposes of qualifying for feats requiring a minimum fighter level.
Special: A fighter or monk can select this feat in place of one of his or her bonus feats.
Ascetic Warrior (Pathfinder)
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Armor training class feature
Benefit: Your fighter levels stack with your monk level to determine your unarmed strike damage. Your defensive skill becomes so sure that you gain your armor training bonus to AC even when unarmored. Also, your monk levels stack with your fighter level when calculating your bravery class feature bonus.
Special: A fighter or monk can select this feat in place of one of his or her bonus feats.
Devoted Warrior (3.5)
Prerequisites: Weapon Specialization, Smite evil class feature
Benefit: You may freely multiclass between the fighter and paladin classes. Your paladin levels stack with your fighter levels for purposes of qualifying for feats requiring a minimum fighter level.
Your fighter levels stack with your paladin levels for purposes of determining bonus damage when you smite evil. This feat does not, however, give you any additional uses per day.
Devoted Warrior (Pathfinder)
Prerequisites: Weapon Specialization, Smite evil class feature
Benefit: Your paladin level stacks with fighter level for purposes of determining your armor training bonus.
Your fighter levels stack with your paladin levels for purposes of determining bonus damage when you smite evil. This feat does not, however, give you any additional uses per day or other improved smite bonuses.
Martial Hunter (3.5)
Prerequisites: Weapon focus, favored enemy class feature
Benefit: Your ranger levels stack with your fighter level for purposes of qualifying for feats requiring a minimum fighter level.
Your fighter levels stack with your ranger level for purposes of determining favored enemy bonuses.
Special: A fighter can select this feat as one of his or her bonus feats.
Martial Hunter (Pathfinder)
Prerequisites: Weapon training, combat style
Benefit: If you have weapon training in the weapons group for which you have at least one combat style bonus feat, your ranger levels stack with your fighter levels for determining the weapon training bonus for that group only. For example, a 9th level fighter/8th level ranger with weapon training (bows) +2 and heavy blades +1, and the archery combat style, would have a modified weapon training bonus with bows of +4; heavy blades would remain at +1, and no additional groups would be added.
Additionally, your fighter levels stack with your ranger level for purposes of determining favored enemy bonuses.
Well, damn! Not a whole lot of interest in these after all, I guess. I'll refrain from posting the others, then.
The idea is somewhat interesting, but they're hard to get just the right balance. For instance, the only ones you posted that look worth taking to me are the ones that advance Sneak Attack.
The idea is somewhat interesting, but they're hard to get just the right balance. For instance, the only ones you posted that look worth taking to me are the ones that advance Sneak Attack.
(Shrugs) Anything advancing armor training can easily be worth more than Dodge, ultimately. And extra favored enemies are always nice; I just introduced this one for the fighter/cleric in LoF:
Ordained Hunter (Pathfinder)
Prerequisites: Channel energy, favored enemy
Benefit: Your cleric levels stack with your ranger levels for purposes of determining your favored enemy bonuses and number of favored enemies. Also, your ranger levels stack with your cleric levels for purposes of channeling energy.
If the others seem "off" on the weak side, it's because (a) they're modelled after existing feats (from Complete Scoundrel, etc.); (b) I like to err on conservative side, rather than create "required" feats; and (c) fighters get a LOT of feats in Pathfinder.
I like them. I'm curious why "Martial Outlaw" doesn't follow the pattern of the other feats, which list a specific fighter feat as a requirement.
Also, what do you think about making the requirement something like "able to take fighter bonus feats," rather than fighter level 1+? Just tossing that out there...
I like them. I'm curious why "Martial Outlaw" doesn't follow the pattern of the other feats, which list a specific fighter feat as a requirement. Also, what do you think about making the requirement something like "able to take fighter bonus feats," rather than fighter level 1+? Just tossing that out there...
Not sure how you'd phrase that in a feat description...
This particular feat (obviously) is geared towards fighter/rogues; the big risk for abuse in that setup, when I playtested a variant of this feat in 3.5, is always in a minimal (1-4 level) rogue dip, followed by fighter from then on. One fighter level ought to be enough to qualify; after the rogue prereq, you're already 6th level minimum... no need to add insult to injury.
For instance, the only ones you posted that look worth taking to me are the ones that advance Sneak Attack.
One thing that's probably coloring my view is the fact that, in 3.5, we used the Prestige Paladin and Prestige Ranger variants, which sort of assume you have some fighter levels to begin with. For them to qualify for one of the fighter multiclass feats was therefore almost a foregone conclusion.
I still sort of feel that, if using base classes a fighter 4/paladin 15 can end up with armor training +4, Armor Mastery, and a +20 smite, a total cost of one feat isn't a big price to pay. On the paladin end, all he gives up is 1 smite/day (and the capstone power, which, since it doesn't apply until 20th level, may never see any use in play anyway). So, is 1 smite/day and 1 feat worth a scaling AC bonus?
I like them. I'm curious why "Martial Outlaw" doesn't follow the pattern of the other feats, which list a specific fighter feat as a requirement. Also, what do you think about making the requirement something like "able to take fighter bonus feats," rather than fighter level 1+? Just tossing that out there...Not sure how you'd phrase that in a feat description...
This particular feat (obviously) is geared towards fighter/rogues; the big risk for abuse in that setup, when I playtested a variant of this feat in 3.5, is always in a minimal (1-4 level) rogue dip, followed by fighter from then on. One fighter level ought to be enough to qualify; after the rogue prereq, you're already 6th level minimum... no need to add insult to injury.
Point taken about the "Martial Outlaw" feat.
I'd word the prerequisite as above, but are there really any classes besides the fighter that allow a character to take fighter bonus feats? So, meh, never mind.
The idea is somewhat interesting, but they're hard to get just the right balance. For instance, the only ones you posted that look worth taking to me are the ones that advance Sneak Attack.(Shrugs) Anything advancing armor training can easily be worth more than Dodge, ultimately. And extra favored enemies are always nice
Ah, I didn't realise it gave you more favored enemies rather than just improving your existing one(s). That is better than I thought (although generally speaking I'd probably just take ranger levels than fighter levels, so it's moot anyways).
A few extra points of AC aren't very interesting to me, so Armor Training leaves me a little cold. I mean it's nice to have some extra AC, but I almost never play above level 10, so Armor Training means +1 or +2 to AC in that case.
I almost never play above level 10, so Armor Training means +1 or +2 to AC in that case.
I tend to lose interest about 15th, so it's up to +3 for me. And, like I said, we're so used to using the Prestige ranger and paladin variants that pretty much everyone with either class has the prerequisite fighter levels.
A few extra points of AC aren't very interesting to me, so Armor Training leaves me a little cold. I mean it's nice to have some extra AC, but I almost never play above level 10, so Armor Training means +1 or +2 to AC in that case.
Armor Training also increases the Max Dex bonus, so if you've got a real high Dex (or a relatively high Dex and Medium or Heavy Armor), your AC could actually increase by 4. Not too shabby.
Considering Dodge only increases AC by 1, and requires a swift action, that's a pretty good AC bonus for a single feat.
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yeah, armor training is gone I noticed in the preview also...
it was a bit much, BUT, it would be an interesting substitution ability to introduce for variants. (would be a nice variant for paladins also...
I think perhaps Grumble Grog had something to do with that nerf LoL...
58+ AC....LoL
Oh and please Kirth Continue!! I'm still interested! heh...just missed this thread yesterday...(trying to keep up with 8 PbP threads, plus the monk preview! heh.