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I'm planning on doing a lot of urban adventuring in an upcoming campaign, maybe even have the entire game run in one city. I've never done this kind of campaign before and no doubt there are some differences between an urban game and one based in a wilderness or dungeons.
I'm probably going to plan the city fairly well but how much information is too much information? How detailed should it get? Should I worry about getting over detailed? Keeping in mind that the players will have access to most of the information I make since they are residents of the city.
Basically what I'm worried about is something like an information overload.
I'm planning on doing a lot of urban adventuring in an upcoming campaign, maybe even have the entire game run in one city. I've never done this kind of campaign before and no doubt there are some differences between an urban game and one based in a wilderness or dungeons.
I'm probably going to plan the city fairly well but how much information is too much information? How detailed should it get? Should I worry about getting over detailed? Keeping in mind that the players will have access to most of the information I make since they are residents of the city.
Basically what I'm worried about is something like an information overload.
While information overload can be a problem, I find it's only an issue if you try to get the players to absorb all the information that their characters would have absorbed over their lives to the point the campaign starts. You will want all those mounds of details, because the players will come up with questions you never thought of answering :) But you'll want to give out your information in managable bites that the players can retain, and preferably refer to in handouts.
The way I've been handling it in Crimson Throne (Korvosa) is as follows:
1) The players were given at start a run down of where things were in the city, and carte blanche to read the Guide to Korvosa barring the secrets section.
2) While they were developing their backgrounds to fit into the city and AP, they'd shoot me questions, and I'd dig up the details I had, and typed them for each person's particular needs.
3) Now, as we play, if it makes sense for the character to know a piece of information about a given shop, person, locale, etc., I tell them when they ask, otherwise they get to roll a Local Knowledge (for example, the Wizard knows all about the college he went to, other apothecaries in the town, other magical shops, but doesn't necessarily automatically know about the religious organizations other than the Bank of Abadar, or the military orginazations other than basic knowledge, so if he wants to know when Bishop d'Bear takes her evening constitutional - if she does - or where Cressida Kroft's private quarters are at the Citadel, he's going to need to roll).
Hope that helps!
I'm planning on doing a lot of urban adventuring in an upcoming campaign, maybe even have the entire game run in one city. I've never done this kind of campaign before and no doubt there are some differences between an urban game and one based in a wilderness or dungeons.
I'm probably going to plan the city fairly well but how much information is too much information? How detailed should it get? Should I worry about getting over detailed? Keeping in mind that the players will have access to most of the information I make since they are residents of the city.
Basically what I'm worried about is something like an information overload.
I'd do some general planning and only detail major players in the city and some key buildings and/or businesses near where your party is going to start. Then add in detail depending on what plot lines they decide to follow.
If you have the money and don't mind running pre-made campaigns/adventures, then you should look into Monte Cook's Ptolus book. It's a large city EXTENSIVELY detailed with plot hooks, major players in the city, buisinesses, guilds, and with adventures weaved throughout...you can DM a game with this book while taking characters from 1st to 20th level all within or under the city fairly easily.
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Well there is a lot of information that is very helpful for the party to know, but it could quickly spiral out of control into things they don't need to know.
I'd suggest having a rough map, and a rough idea who the major political players are in the area. What the thieves guild (there is one) and the local temples and some of the other guilds are and are about so forth do, important NPC's names and a little info about them, important laws for adventurers to know (what's allowed for weapons or animals, is peace-binding acceptable, adventurer's fees and taxes, who responds well to bribes, etc). Really anything else you feel helps bring a city to life.
Think about how the city changes from day to day as well, from morning to afternoon to evening to late night things probably all look different. Shops keep their own hours more then likely.
Give the city some detail too, a clocktower or a river or a particular style of architecture helps make it feel more interesting and well thought out.
I'd suggest a balance between the detail you want, rough ideas for most other things and then working with your players on the rest. It can grow over time after all.
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Thanks for the suggestions all, you have outlined some great ideas for me to take into consideration. More than likely things will be handled much like you're handling your Crimson Throne game Gamer Girrl. Bite-sized information will win :)
@Eric Tillemans: I actually forgot about Ptolus! I've never read it (and don't own it) but I hear it's fantastic. While it wouldn't be a problem for me to order it I just want to get my hands dirty making the city on my own. Nothing against Monte Cook, no doubt he can make a city much better than anything I could muster, it's just the satisfaction I'll get from creating something so large and detailed.
@Morgen: Thanks for reminding me about laws! Methinks with martial law being enforced (the city has enemies at the gates, part of the reason the campaign will be city-based) there should be some order of law :) Thinking about how the city changes due to the hour could also make for very interesting adventures.
About the city detail itself, I was thinking something like Pittsburgh. Lots of hills, rivers, etc. I'm even going to name a higher class area after a higher class area in Pittsburgh.
Do you guys think it would be a good idea to post some general information on a Wiki (I set one up for a past game and the city was a small part of that game)? Maybe give a few rumours the PCs can follow up on that turn into whole adventures, news about the on-goings in the world, and eventually some changes influenced by the PCs actions in the city. Hopefully they will provoke loads of change in the world surrounding the city as well as within.
Hmm, so much to think about with so little time!
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I just want to get my hands dirty making the city on my own.
I think that having a plethora of city sourcebooks (such as Ptolus, Waterdeep, Sharn, Korvosa, Absalom, etc.) at hand would be beneficial to your endeavor. Just so you have a better understanding of what goes into designing a "typical" fantasy city...
-That One Digitalelf Fellow-
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I think that having a plethora of city sourcebooks (such as Ptolus, Waterdeep, Sharn, Korvosa, Absalom, etc.) at hand would be beneficial to your endeavor. Just so you have a better understanding of what goes into designing a "typical" fantasy city...
Of course, getting ideas and examples rounded up is part of my process for creating the town :)
From having created a few, the difference is that a city campaign is concentrated. You might have to do the same development work for a wilderness campaign, but all the NPCs, locales and events rub shoulders a lot more. They tie together a lot more. You also tend to feel like you need to know more because you might think it takes less time to get to a location.
So, the trick is to first consider doing only what's really necessary to get a good outline in place (as already suggested), then use those wilderness and dungeon tricks when you need to stall for time to develop an area or an NPC. Random encounters? That's a person on the street. Places to go? Not so different - make a big list.
PCs want to do a couple things universally.* What are those things?
Get a room.
Get booze.
Get magic.
Get gear.
Get healing.
Get information if they blow a roll.
One way to deal with this is to come up with a list of up to ten names for each category and/or locations to achieve this. When they visit the first one, cross it off the list, take notes on what you describe, and then build upon that.
*In an RP heavy game, they want to do a lot more. The advantage there is that they can roleplay for hours if a rat runs up someone's leg. Buys time quick.
I have a system of city development and overall adventure development that has served me well in the DM's chair over the years.
I agree with the previous posters that getting a basic idea from the start is the best thing to do.
Then get a rough outline of what the PC's might acheive in a single session. If you are playing a loose style of game where the PC's just go wherever they want with little prompting from you this might be more difficult. Put more detail into these overall areas and loosely outline what might happen after that.
This way, you build the skeleton and build it a little at a time. This is great because you get to tailor the game to the goals of the PC's rather than give them much pre-made info which they might ignore.
Sure, put in info regarding the major power centres, temples, basic laws, vibe etc. Do a few maps and go from there. The trick, as a DM, is to guide the PC's without railroading them. Have some stats for the local thugs etc that they may encounter and also a few NPC's. If they encounter NPC's who are far higher in level, don't worry about doing full stat blocks as the PC's would probably never defeat them - just get a few for the baddies who the PC's might actually get nasty with.
City Designer 3 is also pretty cool for designing city maps.
The Savage Tide had a great players guide for the city of Sasserine with a full mapped thieves guild which you could drop right into your game, complete with stats for everyone. Actually, the first couple of episodes are about the best pre-done city RPing I've tried in a long time.
Good luck, keen to hear how it plays.
An additional point;
Safety.
Creating safe places for the pc's in a city is a must. If the pc's will have a hard time leaving the city its even more important.
Places to rest and recuperate, to hide from the Law or the thieves guilds.
One way to do this is that different city wards police themselves + the temple district has its own laws (and guards). Maybe some guilds have purchased the right to police "their" street from the local council/nobleman?
Ancient noble families which own city land may not tolerate the city watchmen bumbling into their gardens or tenants houses etc.
This creates tension between the wards and lots of roleplay opportunities .
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If you have not already started the game, something that I think is useful in a city campaign is a list of friends and family for the PCs. It is very unlikely that they don't actually know anyone at all in town. Even if they are new arrivals, they had to have a reason for coming, they have had to have met SOMEONE already unless the game starts with them walking through the city gates for the first time.
Most games assume the PCs live in a vacuum. I find this very dissatisfying.
Something else I do, for PCs, is when they face a monster I allow them a quick knowledge check with the DC=10+CR of the beastie. If they get it, I tell them what they are facing, assuming they haven't already figured it out, and they can use OOC knowledge. Let's face it, again, the PCs do not live in a vacuum. "You don't know that is a mummy, you have never faced one, so you don't know it is vulnerable to fire." Ummm duh! I have never faced a mummy in RL and know what one is and that fire would be a good defense! Hello! I've never faced a crocodile in the wild but know better than to get in the water with one! That line of DM reasoning is like sending Larry the Cable Guy on an Indiana Jones adventure! Ummmm yeah... right! Or like sending Indiana Jones to repair someone's cable! lol The PCs are adventurer's, if they don't know their business they have no business adventuring.
you have lots of good suggestions here, and frankly there's something you could take from all of them (from basic needs of pcs to how to flesh out contacts) but what I'd suggest is this: buy one. Buy a city that's already done, change the name if you have to, but make use of others' ideas wherever possible when you have to do a lot of planning. (unless you really enjoy things like deciding what a blacksmith's backstory and all are.)
You can even mix and match; you could for example as I might use a bit of Lankhmar here, a bit of Sasserine there and so on.
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Oh! I like those ideas Jit! I was just going to have some hired goons for more private estates but the possibilities between the guards of Generic Guild A and the Temple Guard is too good to pass up on! They will have plenty of places for rest and this can only help them out.
@Krome: PCs living in a vacuum is very unsatisfying. In my last game one of the PCs created a dwarf who left home to join an order of paladins. He became a member of the military, had rank, and everything. When the time came for him to go back over the mountains he ran into an old childhood friend who ended up joining him as a cohort, his entire former home, and even his slightly upset mother. They all chatted for a long while and he was given the family heirloom to help out and offered assistance whenever he needed it. Vacuums stink! I'm all over the PCs having backgrounds, connections, and aides right off the bat.
As for your knowledge check idea: that's a cool way of managing it! Before I just assigned a flat DC and told the PCs various bits of information based on their rolls. I'll have to use your method in this coming game.
@MrFish: It's a joke among my players that whenever I introduce an NPC there's a huge backstory to him :P We all laugh about it but they don't know that most do have a backstory! Oftentimes it's just stray thoughts but sometimes it's put on to paper. NPC backstory is something my players love when they get it. I do enjoy it but lifting ideas from various sources is going to help me complete this city. I just have to get my hands on the materials!
Thanks guys, there are so many good suggestions!
PS. I know Sasserine but I'm not certain where Lankhmar is from, anyone want to fill me in?
Lankhmar is from Fritz Leiber's books, but it was also published by 2E and 1E. I don't know if there was a 3.5 ed version. Anyway it's one of the best city setting books that was done for the old editions. True 20 has Sanctuary and Freeport I believe.
There is no Third Edition version of Lhankmar. I believe they did not have the license (or chose not to use it). According to this wiki entry Mongoose had the license in 2006 and produced two adventures:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lankhmar
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I like the idea of a wiki, or at least something your players can look at in regards to creating their characters. Knowing a bit about the city their in to me helps make the game a bit more fun and it let's the DM drop a few names on occasion.
So like if I said that you were suddenly standing face to face with Nerof Gasgal and you were in the City of Greyhawk, you'd certainly take notice.
Of course, the wiki should contain information that is commonly known to the people of the city, so there is plenty of room for you as a DM to create intrigue and secrecy.
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Thanks for the info on Lankhmar MrFish and varianor. Seems like a fun place to live in! Lots of possiblities to be had.
@Morgen: That's exactly why I will use the wiki, to help the players out and possibly drop names. I also have a little section for rumours that the PCs can check out and follow up on in-game (with gather information or asking the right people, the rumours I post will be relatively vague). It will also be great for conveying news happening in the city as well.
I've personally found a wiki to be a wonderful resource for the players and myself. I don't know if I would want to go without it now :)
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If you have the money and don't mind running pre-made campaigns/adventures, then you should look into Monte Cook's Ptolus book. It's a large city EXTENSIVELY detailed with plot hooks, major players in the city, buisinesses, guilds, and with adventures weaved throughout.
That could work well. For other possibilities, I would recommend Green Ronin's Freeport Trilogy or 0One Games' Urban Adventures: The Road to Revolution Series.
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If you go miniatures level of City development, try something like the Warhammer setting. They pretty much have an entire city mapped out in 3-D where Adventurers are plundering the ruins.
A dark crowded city might have a Majority of Lanes around an arms span in width: What is that? 5 feet?). Walls fifty feet high designed to keep people in and out.
My favourite is Ankh-Morpork in The Colour of Magic: The Wizard Rincewind is 'caught trying to escape' the city on horseback and is threatened by the Patrician with 'Adulterating the Currency with foreign coin' (but its pure gold!!! A single coin is worth six cartloads of ours).
I suggest when mapping the city the following rules:
Backways: 2.5' wide (50%)
Alleys: 5 feet wide (25%)
Lanes: 10 feet wide (12.5%)
Streets: 20 feet wide (6.25%)
BUILDING OVERHANG = 1d100%
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Lankhmar is from Fritz Leiber's books, but it was also published by 2E and 1E. I don't know if there was a 3.5 ed version. Anyway it's one of the best city setting books that was done for the old editions. True 20 has Sanctuary and Freeport I believe.
I would love to see a 3.5/PF version of Lankhmar. BTW, Green Ronin released a 3.5 version of the Freeport Trilogy, and it may be still available through the Paizo store.
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Ok, this is a little self-serving, because I was a writer on it. But may I (not so) humbly suggest taking a gander at 0onegames The Great City Campaign Settting. And maybe even Urban Adventures: The Road to Revolution? Lot of writers who also write for Paizo put a lot of brainsweat into all Urban all the way, and it might be fer what yer lookin.
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Thanks for the suggestions yellowdingo. Running through some narrow passages will be a pain in the rear but the PCs will eventually have to :) Overhangs will also provide for interesting situations.
Ok, this is a little self-serving, because I was a writer on it. But may I (not so) humbly suggest taking a gander at 0onegames The Great City Campaign Settting. And maybe even Urban Adventures: The Road to Revolution? Lot of writers who also write for Paizo put a lot of brainsweat into all Urban all the way, and it might be fer what yer lookin.
It sounds really nice Louis but how many pages is it? I checked around for a hardcover copy (the messages about the product helped me to find one) but it was a wee bit expensive so I'm looking into pricing for printing it myself. PDFs are great but I'd get way more use from it if it were a hardcopy.
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Thanks for the suggestions yellowdingo. Running through some narrow passages will be a pain in the rear but the PCs will eventually have to :) Overhangs will also provide for interesting situations.
Ok, this is a little self-serving, because I was a writer on it. But may I (not so) humbly suggest taking a gander at 0onegames The Great City Campaign Settting. And maybe even Urban Adventures: The Road to Revolution? Lot of writers who also write for Paizo put a lot of brainsweat into all Urban all the way, and it might be fer what yer lookin.It sounds really nice Louis but how many pages is it? I checked around for a hardcover copy (the messages about the product helped me to find one) but it was a wee bit expensive so I'm looking into pricing for printing it myself. PDFs are great but I'd get way more use from it if it were a hardcopy.
How many pages? I printed and handbound the Pathfinder Beta. It was cool. It took 2 weeks to sew and hand bound 200+ Pages with a leather cover.
It will cost you near $200 to get one printed and bound (comb spiral binding up to sizes of 60 page lots) at a copyshop.
I had no idea how draining urban adventure planning can be until I DMed it. What I recommend is that you buy collections of NPCs and a setting, tweaking it from there. The goal is to have backups when your creative juices aren't firing... and since the point of single location adventuring is immersion and detail, that's going to happen on occasion.
You've got several possibilities. Freeport's setting book from Green Ronin is excellent, with lots of interesting personalities and hooks. There's also a Freeport Denizens book which is quite good as well. Pick that one up. There's a Great City adventure path by a 3PP which seems to be fairly detailed, although I've only read the first three adventures, not the setting itself. And, of course, Curse of the Crimson Throne and the Korvosa setting book are quite helpful too.
Getting supplements allows you to devote your time to what your DM muse leads you to, not creating more bars.
Incidentally, EnWorld Publishing has several supplements that detail things that would be very useful as well: a City Council, three guilds, Inns Fairs and Taverns, and Everyone Else (3e stat blocks of varying levels for every profession.
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In addition to my earlier recommendation for Freeport and the Road to Revolution series, you might want to consider something like Pathfinder Chronicles: Guide to Absalom. There is also Brent P. Newhall's Musaeum's The City of Talon- it has a bunch of NPCs stated out for 3.5 Edition, 4th Edition and even GURPs. and costs about five bucks. Dream Machine Productions has a few city PDFs for about two bucks apiece: Aerie (acity built into the face of a mountain), Anyoc (a city built atop an ancient city of evil), but IIRC, they might not have any NPC's stated out. White Wolf also has some city books for the wonderful Scarred Lands setting, such as Hollowfaust: City of Necromancers and Shelzar: City of Sins.
Don't forget all the free download stuff at wizards of the coast. You can download I think 2-3 cities there.