OK, I am having some serious trouble wrapping my head around energy drain, particularly the saves. Perhaps I have been doing it wrong all these years, but I always thought when struck (with a successful touch attack) the character got 2 fortitude saves, the first being at the time of attack to avoid the drain altogether, and the second being 24 hrs later to see if it ‘sticks’ but I have gone through every book I have (3.0 AND 3.5 PH, DMG, MM) and have found absolutely zero references to the first save to avoid the level loss. Am I crazy?
As an aside, I read in a book about alternate energy drain affects, such as simplified level loss rules, but cannot find them either, I thought it was Libris Mortis, but apparently Im wrong about that too, so bonus points if you can point me to the rules variants for energy drain.
Thanx
JD
Usually, the initial effect has no save; 24 hours later, a save is necessary to avoid a permanent level loss.
Look at the spell enervation. It has no save, but is relatively weak negative energy, so there is no need for the permanent loss save 24 hours later. It's a ranged touch attack, so there are ways to avoid it (high touch AC, concealment, invisiblity, cover, move out of range, death ward, counterspelling, mirror images, etc. etc.)
Here's the spell:
Level: Clr 9, Sor/Wiz 9
Saving Throw: Fortitude partial; see text for enervation
This spell functions like enervation, except that the creature struck gains 2d4 negative levels, and the negative levels last longer.
There is no saving throw to avoid gaining the negative levels, but 24 hours after gaining them, the subject must make a Fortitude saving throw (DC = energy drain spell’s save DC) for each negative level. If the save succeeds, that negative level is removed. If it fails, the negative level also goes away, but one of the subject’s character levels is permanently drained.
An undead creature struck by the ray gains 2d4×5 temporary hit points for 1 hour.
And the text on the subject in general:
Energy Drain And Negative Levels
Some horrible creatures, especially undead monsters, possess a fearsome supernatural ability to drain levels from those they strike in combat. The creature making an energy drain attack draws a portion of its victim’s life force from her. Most energy drain attacks require a successful melee attack roll—mere physical contact is not enough. Each successful energy drain bestows one or more negative levels (the creature’s description specifies how many). If an attack that includes an energy drain scores a critical hit, it drains twice the given amount. A creature gains 5 temporary hit points (10 on a critical hit) for each negative level it bestows (though not if the negative level is caused by a spell or similar effect). These temporary hit points last for a maximum of 1 hour.
A creature takes the following penalties for each negative level it has gained:
* -1 on all skill checks and ability checks.
* -1 on attack rolls and saving throws.
* -5 hit points.
* -1 effective level (whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level).
* If the victim casts spells, she loses access to one spell as if she had cast her highest-level, currently available spell. (If she has more than one spell at her highest level, she chooses which she loses.) In addition, when she next prepares spells or regains spell slots, she gets one less spell slot at her highest spell level.
Negative levels remain until 24 hours have passed or until they are removed with a spell, such as restoration. If a negative level is not removed before 24 hours have passed, the affected creature must attempt a Fortitude save (DC 10 + ½ draining creature’s racial HD + draining creature’s Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). On a success, the negative level goes away with no harm to the creature. On a failure, the negative level goes away, but the creature’s level is also reduced by one. A separate saving throw is required for each negative level.
A character with negative levels at least equal to her current level, or drained below 1st level, is instantly slain. Depending on the creature that killed her, she may rise the next night as a monster of that kind. If not, she rises as a wight.
So no initial save according to the SRD which is where I copied these from. Just the save after 24 hrs. Hope that helps.
Yep, spot on. PG 293 of DMG. Always good to have a squiz at the glossary.
I have read p.239, repeatedly, and I find that 'not saying one gets a saving throw upon contact' is decidedly not the same thing as saying 'one doesn't'. Or in other words, while it suggests there is only one save, it doesnt rule out the possibility of an initial save, or leaves it somewhat of a mystery. Most things have saves on initial contact, and even most things with a further save, poison for example, still have the initial save.
However, that said, I bow to the general consensus, since no where in all the rules have we discovered where it explicitly states that one gets an initial save.
No save.
In other news, how does Pathfinder handle energy drain/level loss?
JD
I have read p.239, repeatedly, and I find that 'not saying one gets a saving throw upon contact' is decidedly not the same thing as saying 'one doesn't'. Or in other words, while it suggests there is only one save, it doesnt rule out the possibility of an initial save, or leaves it somewhat of a mystery. Most things have saves on initial contact, and even most things with a further save, poison for example, still have the initial save.
However, that said, I bow to the general consensus, since no where in all the rules have we discovered where it explicitly states that one gets an initial save.
No save.
In other news, how does Pathfinder handle energy drain/level loss?
JD
"There is no saving throw to avoid gaining the negative levels"
Which means that there is no save to avoid gaining the negative levels, which means you gain the negative levels without a save throw, meaning there is no initial save to avoid gaining negative levels...
Seems rather explicit to me.
As for what Pathfinder does (currently)
"Energy Drain
School necromancy; Level cleric 9, sorcerer/wizard 9
efect
Saving Throw Fortitude partial; see text for enervation
description
This spell functions like enervation, except that the creature struck gains
2d4 temporary negative levels, and the negative levels last longer.
There is no saving throw to avoid gaining the negative levels, but
24 hours after gaining them, the subject must make a Fortitude saving
throw (DC = energy drain spell’s save DC) for each negative level. If the
save succeeds, that negative level is removed. If it fails, the negative level
becomes permanent.
An undead creature struck by the ray gains 2d4x5 temporary hit points
for 1 hour."
Please note however this spell (in both cases 3.5 and pathfinder) requires multiple save throws after 24 hours -- One for each negative level gained.
And Restoration clears off negative levels (in pathfinder).
Note also that gaining a negative level is NOT the same as losing a level. When initially struck, a character gains a negative level (which is basically -1 to all d20 rolls, some exceptions). You don't lose feats or skill points or class abilities. If the character doesn't make the save the next day, he loses a level and must adjust accordingly.
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I have read p.239, repeatedly, and I find that 'not saying one gets a saving throw upon contact' is decidedly not the same thing as saying 'one doesn't'. Or in other words, while it suggests there is only one save, it doesnt rule out the possibility of an initial save, or leaves it somewhat of a mystery. Most things have saves on initial contact, and even most things with a further save, poison for example, still have the initial save.
JD
Right, but when things have saves to avoid the effect they say so (just like your poison example), they don't leave it to guessing. It would have in the energy drain description that a DC X saving throw negates this effect. I can't think of a single thing in the entire game that has a saving throw that doesn't spell out explicitly that it has a saving throw, which means that either you've found the one thing that does, or more likely since it takes an attack roll to hit, there is no save vs. the effect. In the same way that there is no save for an orb of fire.
One thing that has always puzzled me is this: when you roll your saves 24 hours later, do you roll it WITH the penalties gained from Negative Levels or not ?
I usually ask to my players to roll taking the penalties for their Negative Levels... but is this true?
And - if this is the case - do you keep the penalties on all rolls made on the same round, even if one of them is successful?
Example:
Hit by a Vampire on round 1, 2 Negative Levels
Hit by a Vampire on round 3, 2 Negative Levels
24 hours later, save1 and save2 - both at -4, even if save1 is successful?
2 rounds later (suppose save1 is successful and save2 not), both saves at -3, even if save3 is successful?
And what about temporary buffs given to them just before they roll their save - would you allow them (even if they have a duration of just few minutes), or would you rule that the bonus, to be effective in this situation, should have been consistent for the whole day before (ok... this is more of a House-Rule, I admit... but it seems so funny that a character has been an Amoeba for 23 hours, and then - pumped at the last minute - shrugs off the Deadly Chill of Death easily...)
Well they have the negative levels... if they were hit with a Bestow Curse spell (wisdom) that sticks, then a Bestow Curse spell (Dex) would you let them roll their "original" save against the second spell? No as their save has been adjusted for their wisdom being lowered, same in the case of Energy Drain. Same with buffing, the idea is to make it harder for them to make the later saves (or in the case of buffing to make them more likely to make those saves)... after all what's the point if it doesn't have the intended effect?
Several spells are like this actually (where they hurt you bad by themselves, but worse as you stack on more debuffing):
Touch of Idiocy
Ray of Exhaustion
Mind Fog
Bestow Curse
Energy Drain
Enervation
Web
Stinking Cloud
Pyrotechnics (smoke version)
Of course this is to be expected, they are Debuffing spells, and meant to hinder you, the more that stick the easier you are to defeat, and more likely to be hindered by further Debuffing.
Generally they make good lead off spells... what you really want to do is stick the enemy with Dominate, or something else similar, but you don't think it'll work with him at full strength, so you burn a couple of other spells making him weaker so your Dominate will actually stick.
Of course by doing so you are gambling that the enemy in question will be more useful to you (even after being debuffed) than the spells you spent on (ahem) 'acquiring' him...
... it seems so funny that a character has been an Amoeba for 23 hours, and then - pumped at the last minute - shrugs off the Deadly Chill of Death easily...
What if, without altering the actions (casting buffs right before the 24 hours pass and call for saves), the perspective and description is changed?
"Will he make it, Antonidas?"
"Perhaps. The curse is powerful, but there is a critical hour approaching. I will use what spells I can to offset the foul enchantment during that vital time which will determine his recovery."
"You can use your magic to overcome the effects of the curse? Why haven't you been doing that all along?"
"First, I cannot overcome the effects. Only mask them. Second, it is far beyond my power, or that of any but the greatest of spellcasters, to constantly expend the amount of energy required to accomplish what you ask. But at this deciding moment, the magic can make a difference."
Same events, described totally differently, and I think a lot cooler. I used to get really frustrated because my players never described things in-game the way I wished they would. Then I learned to remove that irritation and please myself by taking their actions and recasting them through my own descriptive lens. It also pleased the players. They enjoyed the descriptions, and liked hearing the DM not only support their plan, but to get enthusiastically behind it and make it sound even cooler than it did in their heads. It's all a matter of perspective and description.
... it seems so funny that a character has been an Amoeba for 23 hours, and then - pumped at the last minute - shrugs off the Deadly Chill of Death easily...What if, without altering the actions (casting buffs right before the 24 hours pass and call for saves), the perspective and description is changed?
"Will he make it, Antonidas?"
"Perhaps. The curse is powerful, but there is a critical hour approaching. I will use what spells I can to offset the foul enchantment during that vital time which will determine his recovery."
"You can use your magic to overcome the effects of the curse? Why haven't you been doing that all along?"
"First, I cannot overcome the effects. Only mask them. Second, it is far beyond my power, or that of any but the greatest of spellcasters, to constantly expend the amount of energy required to accomplish what you ask. But at this deciding moment, the magic can make a difference."
Same events, described totally differently, and I think a lot cooler. I used to get really frustrated because my players never described things in-game the way I wished they would. Then I learned to remove that irritation and please myself by taking their actions and recasting them through my own descriptive lens. It also pleased the players. They enjoyed the descriptions, and liked hearing the DM not only support their plan, but to get enthusiastically behind it and make it sound even cooler than it did in their heads. It's all a matter of perspective and description.
i like the descriptives there saern. nice way to roll with it.
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... it seems so funny that a character has been an Amoeba for 23 hours, and then - pumped at the last minute - shrugs off the Deadly Chill of Death easily...What if, without altering the actions (casting buffs right before the 24 hours pass and call for saves), the perspective and description is changed?
"Will he make it, Antonidas?"
"Perhaps. The curse is powerful, but there is a critical hour approaching. I will use what spells I can to offset the foul enchantment during that vital time which will determine his recovery."
"You can use your magic to overcome the effects of the curse? Why haven't you been doing that all along?"
"First, I cannot overcome the effects. Only mask them. Second, it is far beyond my power, or that of any but the greatest of spellcasters, to constantly expend the amount of energy required to accomplish what you ask. But at this deciding moment, the magic can make a difference."
Same events, described totally differently, and I think a lot cooler. I used to get really frustrated because my players never described things in-game the way I wished they would. Then I learned to remove that irritation and please myself by taking their actions and recasting them through my own descriptive lens. It also pleased the players. They enjoyed the descriptions, and liked hearing the DM not only support their plan, but to get enthusiastically behind it and make it sound even cooler than it did in their heads. It's all a matter of perspective and description.
Saern receives 75 Pax points for good gaming. Well done.
... it seems so funny that a character has been an Amoeba for 23 hours, and then - pumped at the last minute - shrugs off the Deadly Chill of Death easily...What if, without altering the actions (casting buffs right before the 24 hours pass and call for saves), the perspective and description is changed?
"Will he make it, Antonidas?"
"Perhaps. The curse is powerful, but there is a critical hour approaching. I will use what spells I can to offset the foul enchantment during that vital time which will determine his recovery."
"You can use your magic to overcome the effects of the curse? Why haven't you been doing that all along?"
"First, I cannot overcome the effects. Only mask them. Second, it is far beyond my power, or that of any but the greatest of spellcasters, to constantly expend the amount of energy required to accomplish what you ask. But at this deciding moment, the magic can make a difference."
Same events, described totally differently, and I think a lot cooler. I used to get really frustrated because my players never described things in-game the way I wished they would. Then I learned to remove that irritation and please myself by taking their actions and recasting them through my own descriptive lens. It also pleased the players. They enjoyed the descriptions, and liked hearing the DM not only support their plan, but to get enthusiastically behind it and make it sound even cooler than it did in their heads. It's all a matter of perspective and description.
An excellent piece of prose, Saern. Well-said.
Ya. SO that is ironed out, how about restoration potions? The rules for the restoration spell say it can be used any time 1 day per caster level, but the negative levels become permanent after 24 hours, so will restoration still work after 24 hours? If that is the case, pcs should always risk the save and not waste a restoration spell unless the save is failed?
I need a guide to running these vampire and vampire spawn i am unleashing on the players.
And finally (I am such a loser!) when a vampire or spawn gets reduced to zero hp, they tun gaseous and float towards their crypt. Well the gaseousness has an armour class, so you can obvioulsy try to hit the gas, but no HP since they are at zero, so can you damage them while in gaseous form, and if so, what happens?
Ugh, too lon since I dealt with vampires, I feel embarrassed to have so many question...
Ya. SO that is ironed out, how about restoration potions? The rules for the restoration spell say it can be used any time 1 day per caster level, but the negative levels become permanent after 24 hours, so will restoration still work after 24 hours? If that is the case, pcs should always risk the save and not waste a restoration spell unless the save is failed?
I need a guide to running these vampire and vampire spawn i am unleashing on the players.
And finally (I am such a loser!) when a vampire or spawn gets reduced to zero hp, they tun gaseous and float towards their crypt. Well the gaseousness has an armour class, so you can obvioulsy try to hit the gas, but no HP since they are at zero, so can you damage them while in gaseous form, and if so, what happens?
Ugh, too lon since I dealt with vampires, I feel embarrassed to have so many question...
First of all, the rules for Restoration spells have been changed in Pathfinder Beta.
"This spell functions like lesser restoration, except that it also dispels temporary negative levels or one permanent negative level. If this spell is used to dispel a permanent negative level, it has a material component of diamond dust worth 1,000 gp. This spell cannot be used to dispel more than one permanent negative level possessed by a target in a one-week period.Restoration cures all temporary ability damage, and it restores all points permanently drained from a single ability score (your choice if more than one is drained). It also eliminates any fatigue or exhaustion suffered by the target." (page 264)
As you can see, the only limitation of the new Restoration is that you can recover only one level per week at most; for more levels (actually, all of them), you have to resort to Greater Restoration.
If you are using the 3.x rules, however, the Restoration works like this:
"This spell functions like lesser restoration, except that it also dispels negative levels and restores one experience level to a creature who has had a level drained. The drained level is restored only if the time since the creature lost the level is equal to or less than one day per caster level. A character who has a level restored by restoration has exactly the minimum number of experience points necessary to restore him or her to his or her previous level." (Official SRD)
As you can see, if you are subjected to a Restoration spell (but no potions, sorry... Restoration is a 4th level spell, and as such cannot be imbued into a Potion - but it can be imbued into a Wand, though) while you still suffer only from negative levels (the first 24-hours period), those negative levels are immediately dispelled; if you wait 24 hours, though, and some of those Negative levels become effective Level Drain, Restoration works only on one of them, provided that the time of the Negative Level itself is no more older than one day per caster level of the Restoration spell you are subjected to.
Regarding Vampires and Vampire Spawns:
"Fast Healing (Ex): A vampire heals 5 points of damage each round so long as it has at least 1 hit point. If reduced to 0 hit points in combat, it automatically assumes gaseous form and attempts to escape. It must reach its coffin home within 2 hours or be utterly destroyed. (It can travel up to nine miles in 2 hours.) Any additional damage dealt to a vampire forced into gaseous form has no effect. Once at rest in its coffin, a vampire is helpless. It regains 1 hit point after 1 hour, then is no longer helpless and resumes healing at the rate of 5 hit points per round." (Official SRD) (the entry for Fast Healing of Vampire Spawns is similar, only difference is that the Fast Healing value is only 2)
As you can see, nothing can damage a Vampire (Spawn) in Gaseous Form when he reaches 0 hp, but the creature becomes merely a cloud of smoke that is compelled to return to his coffin or die miserably...
(as a side note, since the equimpment is still fused into the creature - as per the Gaseous Form spell - , this is a good plot idea for Vampires that have stolen something precious: you MUST track them to recover their gear, or else it would be lost into a 9-miles-diameter area from the point of the 'killing strike'...)
First of all, the rules for Restoration spells have been changed in Pathfinder Beta.
"This spell functions like lesser restoration, except that it also dispels temporary negative levels one permanent negative level. If this spell is used to dispel a permanent negative level, it has a material component of diamond dust worth 1,000 gp. This spell cannot be used to dispel more than one permanent negative level possessed by a target in a one-week period.
So if you catch it within the first 24 hours when the levels are temporary, you'll ditch them all, if you make your save throws after the 24 hours you ditch them, and if you are stuck with a few after the 24 hours once per week you can use Restoration to ditch one of the "permanent" negative levels.
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Okay - - - this is just a quick case study scenario to summarize. Please confirm its accuracy (previous topic):
(During a 3.5 game...)
Upon the Necropolis of a reclusive vampire, the party encounters a gaggle of Wights, whereupon the Fighter is struck twice by their evil claws.
The Fighter does not make a saving throw because each successful melee attack that hits bestows one negative level. In our story, the Wight achieved a critical hit with its second successful strike, so our Fighter now has three (3) negative levels to contend with. The successful Wight receives 15 temporary hitpoints that can last up to 1 hour. Sadly, the Fighter takes a -2 on all skill, ability, attacks, saves and loses 2 HD (whenever level is used in a die roll calculation); since the Fighter is not a spellcaster, she does not lose 1 slot of highest level until the negative level is removed.
We forward in time now to 24 hours later...the Fighter has not been restored with any magic and must attempt a FORT SAVE. She would save 2 times, since two levels were drained.
Here is what I just learned.... even in the Wight scenario (above), the PC does not get an initial saving throw. ? Right?!? For some reason I seemed to think there WAS an initial saving throw. That is, every time a wight hits—IT DRAINS YOU. Period.
And, since we're at it, lets also confirm that the PC does not need to subtract 7 average hit points from their running HP total to represent the level drain (during the 24 hour period). That would occur if the saving throws fail and the PC actually permanently loses 2 levels. Right?! Also, if this were a situation where constitution score was damaged or drained, the the PC would need to instantly adjust their running hp to account for loss of Con bonus (or should that just be an entirely different topic). Maybe its just getting late and I'm tired....?
Now, if someone is willing, first, please confirm this scenario is accurate. And could someone also rewrite this scenario in Pathfinder, making accurate rules adjustments as you go. Thanks.
On the running HP I just hit it off the top so to speak. Their maximum HP has dropped, the only time I make their actual current HP drop is when they are at maximum, or a higher total than their new current maximum. I can't say for sure that that's standard 3.5 but it is what I see the most of in my area (example: Fighter has 85 out of a max of 115 HP, takes a negative level, loses 10 off the max, but because his maximum is still more than 85 he doesn't actually lose any HP. If he had been at 110 HP and taken the negative level his new maximum is 105 so he "loses" 5 HP from his current dropping him down to 105). A more realistic way to handle would probably be a percentage lose of HP proportional to the amount of Max HP lost, but that's more work than I care to do at the table.
As to the no initial save throw, Yup, no save. Don't get hit, it's not healthy.
When you take a negative level, you also take 5 hp in damage for each one. This is the same as the temp HP gained by the energy draining critter. So if a fighter got hit for 7 damage and energy drained for 2 levels, he would be down a total of 17 HP, 7 of which were healable until the neg levels were cured. The HP lost are not based on the Target's Class/Type (not d10 average, or d4, etc)