I'm very interested in the city state of Alkenstar. Frankly I think that the layout of the city sounds damn cool with the huge spires and multiple bridges high above the ground and the fact that they have no magic makes things interesting. A few things that would make me happy is to know A)When we may see some kinda splat, through the companion or chronicles, about Alkenstar and B) If it were possible to learn more about Gunmarshals before then! A friend is looking at running one of the APs (he's not sure which) and depending on which one it is I was looking at a gunslinger character, the problem I'm having is I'm not sure how the Gunmarshals have been envisioned. Are they duster wearing, pistol slinging, horse riding gunmen straight out of our wild west movies or are they going around in armor toting rifles and such. Both are extremely cool, but I admit to liking the idea of the duster wearing style more. My assumption is that the Gunmarshals are fighters and not rangers or some other class. Really I'd just love to see an "unofficial" blurb with more information about Gunmarshals.
Besides the Marshals
Creative Director
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Alkenstar certainly has a unique feel to it; but it's also one of the more polarizing and more "out of context" areas in the entire campaign setting. The preponderance of guns and technology and the strange characteristics of the Mana Wastes make it a somewhat difficult region to reconcile in many minds (including mine) with the nature of the surrounding regions of Golarion.
Guns in fantasy settings tend to have this polarizing effect. In my opinion, when you put guns into a fantasy setting, you should go all-out with them, and they should be common and well-known. Final Fantasy does this very well, as does the Iron Kingdoms (created by Privateer Press).
Golarion is, for the most part, not a "guns in fantasy" world. Yet it IS supposed to be a world where everyone can find at least one corner of the world that they really enjoy. Thus, we have a gun/tech region with Alkenstar (along with vikings, science fiction/fantasy, pirates, and other specific "D&D" traditions elsewhere).
But still, Alkenstar is a particularly strange fit for the rest of Golarion, and as a result we're very unlikely to do much more with it in the future. If there's an upsurge of interest, of course, that might change, but for now, Alkenstar is perhaps the most likely place in the Inner Sea region that we'll never do much more with and thus leave it safe for GMs to develop as they wish without much fear of us coming along later to create "official canon" for the place that might disrupt or conflict with homebrew development.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 16, 2010 Top 4
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If there's an upsurge of interest, of course, that might change...
I don't consider myself an "upsurge," but I did want to mention that I for one quite enjoy the dab of spice that is Alkenstar. My first character in Second Darkness used a brace of pistols he made for himself after an apprenticeship in that magic bereft land, and while the guns were by no means common, no one else seemed to think them out of place.
And they worked quite nicely with the Turning Smite feat...
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Director of Narrative
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While I've never had firearms play anything close to a prominent role in my campaigns over the years, I appreciate that you guys gave a nod to those who do use them. I also think that, while a bit off from the surrounding locales, you fit firearms and Alkenstar in pretty damned well. They are hard to get, hard to keep and pretty expensive. By the time most PCs could afford them, they've got better wand options as far as mechanics go, so someone wanting a firearm is going to do it purely for flavor reasons.
Heya Robert this is from a previous thread, I thought you might find interesting.
Anyway I am thinking of a Cog/Clock Punk (Too early for steam)adventure set in Alkenstar.
Two young Gnome brothers Anvil and Bilurn Skrybe (I have to work on the names) have their plans for their skycart stolen. They hire the party to retrieve them... and all sorts of clockwork high-jinks occur.
I'm really digging this idea. One of my favorite fantasy locales has always been Lantan...until the bastards destroyed it in 4E. Ever since they did that, I've been thinking of ways to introduce Lantan-like elements to other game worlds. I've even been playing with an idea for a Pathfinder "Gearsmith" prestige class, but so far I have a huge problem: all of the abilities are linked to contraptions, so if you take away a Gearsmith's toys, you essentially turn him into an expert. The corollary is that you can give his...
Class ability - MacGuyver: you can jury rig/repair just about anything from the most bizarre assortment of tools and junk. The size and weight of the objects you create advance at 5lb and 5 cubic feet per level. The number of times that your contraption works before it fails cataclysmaly is equal to your level.
Feat: A-Team Allows you to apply your MacGuyver ability to vehicles. It also increase the weight allowance and area of your jury-rig by a multiple of 10 for vehicles only.
Very amusing, but it would be a nightmare for DMs to adjudicate. That being said, this is reminiscent of one of the class abilities that I think actually works well: when disabling a non-magical trap, a Gearsmith has two additional options. At lower levels, he can modify the trap to use a different trigger and (if directional) to point in a different direction. At higher levels, he can extract the damage-dealing mechanism (assuming it isn't something along the lines of a "giant falling boulder to crush its victims" trap or a "fall into a pit full of spikes" trap, etc.) and jerry-rig it as a single-use weapon; basically, if the trap is small enough he can pick it up, carry it away, point it at someone, and set it off.The feat is somewhat similar to an idea I have, but which I haven't yet been able to properly phrase as a good rule. It would apply to non-weapon items that require active operation by intelligent creatures (such as a ship or mill): a Gearsmith would be able to modify such items to perform better for a certain length of time. At the end of that time, the modifications break and the equipment performs worse until the Gearsmith restores it to its original configuration.
The rest of the powers I've been able to think up thus far all involve the ability to craft nifty clockwork (or chemical) gadgets. The problem with this is that (as I said before) if you take away a Gearsmith's gadgets, he's pretty useless. I'm still trying to think up a way to mitigate that problem.
Just ripping something off from Shadowrun.Gearsman of Alkenstar - Class ability: Implant/Graft clockwork. A Gearsman can implant or graft a device into their body with a device rating up to their unmodified willpower save. You may exceed your rating but a great price. The loss of humanity that comes with implants will cause you to suffer a will power penalty at twice the rating that you exceed it by.
Non Gearsmen can have implants but actually must sacrifice will power save points equal to the clock work devices rating.
Basic Hand Rating 1
Basic Arm Rating 2
Basic Leg Rating 3
Basic Eye Rating 1Strength +2 Arm Rating 3..
I find this very creepy and disturbing, but in a good way. I realize that you've basically transposed the standard cybernetics rules, but your flavor text makes me think of the cybermancy rules. It also reminds me of the Pale Master's "undead graft" class feature, just with machines and gears instead of undead body parts. I can imagine a whole order of these guys, living in relative isolation in monastary-type facilities. They would all be dedicated to advancing technology. They would see flesh as weak and imperfect, and so would aspire to "improve" themselves by replacing their "flawed" bodies with "ideal" machine components, one piece at a time. Not the direction I want to go with my Gearsmith concept, but definitely something I would incorporate into a game. You could even throw in a prophecy about "the one" who will come along and achieve complete machine perfection, ushering in a new era of order and logic. You could dial the "insidious factor" up or down to suit your needs as a DM: at one end of the spectrum they would be like the Borg, with the ultimate goal of remaking the entire world to match their vision; at the other end of the spectrum they would jealously guard their secrets and reserve "perfection" for those who are "worthy."
Kind of like the Cybermen from Dr Who.... Or an elite group of assassins dedicated to the eradication of Magic. I was also thinking of rogue Gearsmen doing "shadowrun" style missions. I need to find out more about Alkenstar - does Psionics work there - is it all magic dead.I have been thinking about your problem with the Gearsmith..... The best idea I can come up with is use the Rogue as a base class and then have a combination of Rogue feats, alternate levels and talents that way it makes the Gearsmith useful in other situations.
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Actually one book I've found that works quite well in my view of Alkenstar is Dragonmech by Goodman Games, the book has a number of classes, class variants, and equipment that would work well in Alkenstar.
There is a coglayer which gets access to 'steampowers' which enable him to build stuff like small clockwork assistants, metal limbs, automated weapons and the such, it can be a wee bit unbalanced at times but it's in such a limited area that you render yourself useless for anything else. I'm really fond of the Steamborg, a person who feels such a bond with technology that he has a steam engine implanted in his body and uses it to power more and more mechanical augments and replacements (although at higher levels they have to make daily will saves or lose their humanity and turn into little more than a mobile Babbage Engines). Of course the book also has giant robots and a single prestige class that bonds you with said robots (giving you the almost certainly unique class features of Paraplegia and Quadriplegia) but that is really out there and only seems plausible in the setting (although the bonded with a robot guy could make for a unique BBEG).
Robert, you might be interested in a thread I put up a while ago, called the "Alkenstar Ranger"; it's now archived, but if you do a search for it you'll find it.
As I am obsessive compulsive and I like to have things in one place I pasted in here. I hope you don't mind EtC.
OK, here’s a little idea I’ve thrown together which may interest others, and is a variant ranger class called the Alkenstar Ranger. They have alternate training to that of standard rangers, given that they come from a dead-magic area! :p
I don’t know how balanced it is, but some may like it, and at the least, it provides a basis for discussion.Alkenstar rangers lost the following abilities: animal companion, evasion, spellcasting ability, wild empathy. Also, an Alkenstar ranger may not take the two-weapon style of bonus combat feats.
Instead, they gain the following abilities: Free Draw, Gunfocus, Enhanced Gunfocus, and Wild Talent.
Additional changes: They have Fort and Will in place of Fort and Ref as good saves; this is because Gunfocus depends on good Will saves; they gain Autohypnosis and Knowledge (psionics) as class skills (see the d20SRD); and gain proficiency with all guns as well as those they normally have access to.
For 3.5 rangers, the combat style path provides: Point Blank Shot, then Far Shot, then Improved Precise Shot.
For both versions, Manyshot should not be available, but Gunslinger (from the Pathfinder Campaign Setting) may replace it as a bonus choice.I’ve included tables based on the 3.5 and the PFRPG versions.
Alkenstar rangers are a breed apart. From sources unknown, although some believe the training came from travellers from Akiton the Red, this hardy bunch of gun-wielding rangers have mystical powers that ensure their survival in magic-dead Alkenstar. Such skills are useful outside their homeland, too, although they are rarely seen outside their homeland.
Alkenstar Ranger (based on 3.5 version)
Lvl_BAB_Fort_Ref_Will__Special
1__+1__+2__+0__+2__1st favoured enemy, Track, Wild Talent
2__+2__+3__+0__+3__Combat style (Point Blank Shot)
3__+3__+3__+1__+3__Endurance
4__+4__+4__+1__+4__+1 gunfocus
5__+5__+4__+1__+4__2nd favoured enemy, Free Draw
6__+6__+5__+2__+5__Enhanced gunfocus +1, Improved combat style (Far Shot)
7__+7__+5__+2__+5__Woodland stride
8__+8__+6__+2__+6__+2 gunfocus, swift tracker
9__+9__+6__+3__+6__
10_+10_+7__+3__+7__3rd favoured enemy, enhanced gunfocus +2
11_+11_+7__+3__+7__Combat style mastery (Improved Precise Shot)
12_+12_+8__+4__+8__+3 gunfocus
13_+13_+8__+4__+8__Camoflague
14_+14_+9__+4__+9__Enhanced gunfocus +3
15_+15_+9__+5__+9__4th favoured enemy
16_+16_+10_+5__+10_+4 gunfocus
17_+17_+10_+5__+10_Hide in plain sight
18_+18_+11_+6__+11_Enhanced gunfocus +4
19_+19_+11_+6__+12_
20_+20_+12_+6__+12_5th favoured enemy, +5 gunfocusAlkenstar Ranger (based on PFRPG version)
Lvl_BAB_Fort_Ref_Will__Special
1__+1__+2__+0__+2__1st favoured enemy, Track, Wild Talent
2__+2__+3__+0__+3__Combat style feat
3__+3__+3__+1__+3__Endurance, 1st favoured terrain
4__+4__+4__+1__+4__+1 gunfocus, hunter’s bond
5__+5__+4__+1__+4__2nd favoured enemy, Free Draw
6__+6__+5__+2__+5__Enhanced gunfocus +1, combat style feat
7__+7__+5__+2__+5__Woodland stride
8__+8__+6__+2__+6__+2 gunfocus, swift tracker, 2nd favoured terrain
9__+9__+6__+3__+6__
10_+10_+7__+3__+7__3rd favoured enemy, combat style feat, enhanced gunfocus +2
11_+11_+7__+3__+7__Quarry
12_+12_+8__+4__+8__+3 gunfocus, camoflage
13_+13_+8__+4__+8__3rd favoured terrain
14_+14_+9__+4__+9__Combat style feat, enhanced gunfocus +3
15_+15_+9__+5__+9__4th favoured enemy
16_+16_+10_+5__+10_+4 gunfocus
17_+17_+10_+5__+10_Hide in plain sight
18_+18_+11_+6__+11_4th favoured terrain, combat style feat, enhanced gunfocus +4
19_+19_+11_+6__+12_Improved quarry
20_+20_+12_+6__+12_5th favoured enemy, +5 gunfocus, master hunterNew abilities:
Wild Talent: The Alkenstar ranger gains Wild Talent as a bonus feat. (This class feature provides the character with the psionic power he needs to use his gunfocus ability, if he has no power points otherwise.)
Gunfocus (Su): At the beginning of the day, an Alkenstar ranger must meditate for one hour; this prepares him mentally to focus his mental energies on summoning his gunfocus. He must do so while holding a crossbow or gun. If he does not do this, then he may note use this ability or enhanced gunfocus.
Once the meditation has been performed, as a move action, the Alkenstar ranger may focus his mental energies to summon his gunfocus.
At 4th-level and every four levels thereafter, the weapon that he meditates on gains an +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls (+2 at 8th-level, +3 at 12th-level, +4 at 16th-level, and +5 at 20th-level). The weapon used counts as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Even in places where psionic or magical effects do not work (such as within the realm of Alkenstar), an Alkenstar ranger can attempt to sustain his gunfocus by making a DC 20 Will save. On a successful save, the Alkenstar ranger retains his gunfocus for a number of rounds equal to his class level before he needs to check again. On an unsuccessful attempt, the gunfocus vanishes. As a move action on his turn, the Alkenstar ranger can attempt a new Will save to resummon his gunfocus while he remains within the nullifying area.
Enhanced Gunfocus (Su): At 6th-level, an Alkenstar ranger gains the ability to enhance his gunfocussed weapon. He can add any one of the weapon special abilities on the table below that has an an enhancement bonus of +1.
At every four levels beyond 6th (10th, 14th, and 18th), the value of the enhancement an Alkenstar ranger can add to his weapon improves to +2, +3, and +4, respectively. An Alkenstar ranger can choose any combination of weapon special abilities that does not exceed the total allowed by the Alkenstar ranger level. For example, an 18th-level Alkenstar ranger could add two +2 weapon special abilities, or one +1 weapon ability and one +3 weapon ability.
The weapon ability or abilities remain the same every time the Alkenstar ranger summons his gunfocus (unless he decides to reassign its abilities; see below). The ability or abilities apply to the weapon that the Alkenstar ranger meditated upon that day.
Weapon Special Ability___Enhancement Bonus Value
Bane (favoured enemies only)___+1
Distance___+1
Merciful___+1
Seeking___+1
Psychokinetic*___+1
Collision*___+2
Psychokinetic Burst*___+2
Psibane*___+2
Dislocator*___+3
Speed (guns only)___+3
* These are weapon special abilities included in the psionics part of the d20SRD.An Alkenstar ranger can reassign the ability or abilities he has added using enhanced gunfocus. To do so, he must first spend 8 hours in concentration, and with the next day’s meditation, the weapon gains the new ability or abilities. For example, an 10th-level Alkenstar ranger might have initially chosen to imbue psychokinetic burst, a +2 weapon special ability. Every time he summons his gunfocus, the weapon is counted as a +2 psychokinetic burst gun. However, on learning he may face undead the next day (a favoured enemy for him), he could take 8 hours to change this special ability to add the undead-bane and seeking abilities, instead of psychokinetic burst.
Free Draw: The Alkenstar ranger can summon his gunfocus as a free action instead of as a move action. He can make only one attempt to summon his gunfocus per round, however (if, for example, he must make a Will save to summon it within a dead-magic field).
Wow guys that's a lot of information! I didn't really expect to see such a turn out. The character concept I've been playing around with is very much influenced by old western movies and more recently I've been introduced to Firefly by my girlfriend and roommate. So it's got me in a bit of a cowboy mood. I'd like him to be a Gunmarshal who decided to travel (after all it doesn't stipulate they have to stay in Alkenstar). With that said I think that all of things that have been presented give me a good direction to be looking in, I'm tapping my gamer group to see if anyone owns a copy of the Dragonmech book so I can have a look see.
I like the way you built the Alkenstar Ranger, question though. Do we know if Psionics are affected by the mana wastes? In the campaign setting it just says it is magic dead, personally I've kept psionics and magic seperate since AD&D 2nd edition when I started gaming. Oh THAC0 how hilarious you can be for people who can't handle simple math. Normally I shy away from rangers due to the limitations of Favored Enemy. Don't get me wrong it's a cool ability, but if you choose the wrong enemy you may never get to see the benefits of it.
I am curious how the community envisions the Gunmarshals, do people consider them more ranger-esque or a little more fighter oriented and focusing on getting those feats like Weapon Focus and Specialization and just pumping up their guns like that since they typically lack magic. I definately like where you went with the Alkenstar Ranger I think it's classy. While the gear graftings are definitely something intriguing it doesn't fit the concept I was looking at. I believe one of the Dragon Magazines had a similar type concept in the Class Acts section, if I recall it was a monastic order and used clockwork grafts. I'm sure it was in some way connected to Mechanus.
> Question Though: Do we know if Psionics are affected by the mana wastes? In the campaign setting it just says it is magic dead, personally I've kept psionics and magic seperate since AD&D 2nd edition when I started gaming.
You gave your own answer: You keep psionics and magic separate, so the mana wastes, not being the psi wastes, won't affect psionics.
Psionics are a minor thing in Golarion. They don't lose too many words over it. It's there, you can use it if you want, but you don't have to.
Plus, they want you to play the game your style. If you want psionics to be a whole different animal, let it be. If you want it to be the third kind of magic, that's swell, too.
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Creative Director
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We haven't done any official rules conversions to PFRPG for psionics, but whatever we DO do, I can guarentee that psionics is magic. They suffer the same penalties and advantages as magic. In fact, I suspect it'll just be an addition to divine and arcane. So you'd see: divine magic, arcane magic, and psionic magic.
So yes; the mana wastes affect psionics in the same way they they affect divine and arcane magic.
divine, arcane and mind magic...remove the "psionic" out of it...and more people will accept it...
Now, as far as Alkenstar! I'm there!!
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divine, arcane and mind magic...remove the "psionic" out of it...and more people will accept it...
Now, as far as Alkenstar! I'm there!!
Noooooo ! Keep the psionic. And Get druidic magic out from divine and necromancer out from arcane. So Arcane is red, Necromantic is black, psionic is blue, divine is white and druidic is gree... Ok, forget it, already been done.
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Noooooo ! Keep the psionic. And Get druidic magic out from divine and necromancer out from arcane. So Arcane is red, Necromantic is black, psionic is blue, divine is white and druidic is gree... Ok, forget it, already been done.divine, arcane and mind magic...remove the "psionic" out of it...and more people will accept it...
Now, as far as Alkenstar! I'm there!!
You can do that with Wizard's fantasy gam4e...
I like the idea behind Alkenstar. It answers the question: "Why would you bother with guns when magic is cheaper and/or better?" Answer: Because it's in a dead magic zone.
(If guns are cheaper and/or better than magic, then you're probably playing d20 Modern or something like that.)
If I was to base a campaign in Alkenstar, I'd look to David Gemmell's The Jerusalem Man series with Jon Shannow as a resource. As it went on, the series took on more of a fantastical feel over the Western elements. Good examples of how magic and technology can exist side by side but not interact too much, and how you could justify limits on either.
If I was to base a campaign in Alkenstar, I'd look to David Gemmell's The Jerusalem Man series with Jon Shannow as a resource. As it went on, the series took on more of a fantastical feel over the Western elements. Good examples of how magic and technology can exist side by side but not interact too much, and how you could justify limits on either.
They were a good series of books - If I remember correctly there was some sort of tenuous link with his Alexander - king Arthur series. Something to do with some magic stones...
I could see pulling in some inspiration from China Mieville's books. Make Alkenstar a smaller scale New Crobuzon, the mana wastes (and perhaps the Worldwound) are similar to the Cacotopic Stain, etc etc. I could even see adding in Remade.
Also, I think the relation of undead to ab-dead to living laid out in the Scar might be a neat take on Gebbite society.
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I like the idea behind Alkenstar. It answers the question: "Why would you bother with guns when magic is cheaper and/or better?" Answer: Because it's in a dead magic zone.
(If guns are cheaper and/or better than magic, then you're probably playing d20 Modern or something like that.)
Put me down for being highly interested in seeing Alkenstar developed.
Right now I have melded some of the Iron Kingdoms rules and ideas to make Alkenstar a grimy but interesting place to visit--even if your character is a wizard. The reason for guns and clockwork as opposed to spells and magic seemed too simplistic to me. Instead of just staying that magic is dead in this region, I changed the history slightly: Sometime in Alkenstar's past the wizardry profession went awry, whether it be in their machinations to control the realm or some other plot (with the Mana Wastes being the last straw) matters little, but in the final analysis the magic-weary populace of Alkenstar outlawed magic-use (perhaps this paradigm shift was engineered by merchant lords and guilds who had invested in the new, burgeoning guns & clockwork industry and needed scapegoats). Now, the ignorant masses--not able to distinguish between sorcery from wizardry let alone psionics--will not hesitate to lynch a spellcaster. As for paladins & clerics, they better be known and proven members of a church. Druids--they are SOL, unless they can cloak their identity (but no druid worth his salt that I know would ever set foot in such a smog-choked Dickensian phantasmopolis in the first place). Native rangers would lose their ability to cast spells (perhaps gaining bonus non-magical abilities related to mechanics, engineering, steamcraft, guns, and detecting magic). Meanwhile, gun-toting inquisitor/mage hunters supported by a troupe of steam-powered automatons guard the city against unlawful entry by spellcasters.
Though magic still works in Alkenstar, it is highly suppressed--which makes for interesting roleplaying possibilities for PC spellcasters having some reason to travel to the city. The IK Player's Handbook should go far in providing inspiration for developing a campaign set in this region.
The problem with the Iron Kingdoms is twofold: (1). Its not supported very well; (2). it has great ideas about a steam & sorcery setting, but than goes overboard by including the equivalent of steam-powered battlemechs controlled by heavily armored wizards. A little bit of weird tech is good. Battletech mixed with Middle-earth is bad.
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Actually I have sort of blended together the Iron Kingdoms and Golarion. I really like both worlds and they can work well together.
The most noticable thing I have used is non-human deities. The ones from IK are just awesome!
Added in guns and such and pistol mages for Alkenstar. Yep their magic works, sort of like you described, magic is just repressed by the powers that be...
No steam mechs though. That pushes it just a bit, though in all honesty if you have constructs already what does it matter that these constructs are militaristic... mmmm should think about that some... instead of steam powered they are elemental powered... mmm change the whole feel somewhat... instead of machinery... summoner/mechanics... elemental machines...
well something to think about anyway...
Though magic still works in Alkenstar, it is highly suppressed--which makes for interesting roleplaying possibilities for PC spellcasters having some reason to travel to the city. The IK Player's Handbook should go far in providing inspiration for developing a campaign set in this region.
Personally, without the anti-magic field investing in technology makes little sense to me, especially when the technological method is usually weaker and more expensive than the magical method and two powerful high-magic nations live right next door.
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Though magic still works in Alkenstar, it is highly suppressed--which makes for interesting roleplaying possibilities for PC spellcasters having some reason to travel to the city. The IK Player's Handbook should go far in providing inspiration for developing a campaign set in this region.Personally, without the anti-magic field investing in technology makes little sense to me, especially when the technological method is usually weaker and more expensive than the magical method and two powerful high-magic nations live right next door.
and still there are automatha inside the clocktower academy in Absalom that no one understand hown they work
I really like the feeling of Alkensar... and while I know it grinds James mind... I would add a vote for some future instalment.
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Though magic still works in Alkenstar, it is highly suppressed--which makes for interesting roleplaying possibilities for PC spellcasters having some reason to travel to the city. The IK Player's Handbook should go far in providing inspiration for developing a campaign set in this region.Personally, without the anti-magic field investing in technology makes little sense to me, especially when the technological method is usually weaker and more expensive than the magical method and two powerful high-magic nations live right next door.
Always remember Clark's Third Law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
I imagine Alkenstar society would have arisen and thrived in direct opposition to the two magical nations--both of which would obviously covet the resource rich river valley of the Grand Duchy. Only by the latest advances in alchemy, metallurgy, and natural philosophy have the people of Alkenstar been able to maintain their independence from the necromantic autocracy of Geb and the baroque machiavellian bureaucracy of Nex. Both nations of which, in their magic-crazed hubris--as any highborn, educated Alkenstarian would point out--were responsible for the grotesque blight that is the Mana Wastes. This alone justifies the suppression of magic and the elevation of alternative powers such as foundries, steamworks, and alchemy--all of which are controllable, whereas magic has proven to be unstable, unpredictable and liable to turn upon its users at the most unexpected of times.
With this in mind, I envision the Grand Duchy of Alkenstar to be a kind of fantasy dystopia, where paranoia arises like a miasma as thick as the yellow-sooty fog that often requires city streets to be lit with gas lamps even during the day. The realm is sandwiched between two decadent magic-rich nations to the north and south, the blasted wastelands of the Mana Wastes to the east, and the nigh impassible Shattered Range beyond which lies the uncharted jungles of the Mwangi Expanse. This is where the Gunmarshals come into play. I see them as a prestige class open to fighters, rangers, and paladins native to Alkenstar. First formed to protect the populace from incursions of aberrations from the Mana Wastes, their role has expanded to hunt down renegade spellcasters, investigate unlawful magic-use, and patrol the frontiers of the Grand Duchy.
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Though magic still works in Alkenstar, it is highly suppressed--which makes for interesting roleplaying possibilities for PC spellcasters having some reason to travel to the city. The IK Player's Handbook should go far in providing inspiration for developing a campaign set in this region.Personally, without the anti-magic field investing in technology makes little sense to me, especially when the technological method is usually weaker and more expensive than the magical method and two powerful high-magic nations live right next door.
A gun is cheaper than a wand of Magic Missiles.... and only very darn few people can use than wand... I'd rather field an army with guns rather than just two guys with a couple of wands.
Also, are those mages able to armor up the entire army? Are you going to be giving your entire army magic items?
Technology is much cheaper than magic, and more reliable. It can't be dispelled...
And if you have two high-magic nations right next door, you arm you army with cheap reliable superior weapons and march on them and stomp them into the ground.
A gun is cheaper than a wand of Magic Missiles....
Huh? I think the Golarion Campaign Setting says that a Small Pistol (the cheapest gun) costs 1,000 gp vs. 750 for a wand of Magic Missiles. Or am I misremembering?
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A gun is cheaper than a wand of Magic Missiles.... and only very darn few people can use than wand... I'd rather field an army with guns rather than just two guys with a couple of wands.
Also, are those mages able to armor up the entire army? Are you going to be giving your entire army magic items?
Technology is much cheaper than magic, and more reliable. It can't be dispelled...
And if you have two high-magic nations right next door, you arm you army with cheap reliable superior weapons and march on them and stomp them into the ground.
this is a theory and ideology I can work with... it worked for the Order of Reason in Mage: Sorcerer's Crusade :P
Until your army is annihilated by the magical area of effect weapons for the enemy. Dispelling magic is all fine, if you actually have the ability to dispel it.
On the 'using' end of a magic missile wand, a anyone with Use Magic Device can use them. A human or half-elf a 1st level expert NPC could have a +11, so rolling a 9 or better, and only a 5% chance of making it unusable for 24 hours with each use. I'll need to pull out my copy of the setting book to give a comparison of an equality trained firearm using warrior.
People fear invading Alkenstar because they have the trump card in a non-magical world. However Alkenstar's power doesn't really have to much value outside it's boarders. The lack of magic in an Alkenstar army would really come back to hurt them.
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A gun is cheaper than a wand of Magic Missiles.... and only very darn few people can use than wand... I'd rather field an army with guns rather than just two guys with a couple of wands.
Also, are those mages able to armor up the entire army? Are you going to be giving your entire army magic items?
Technology is much cheaper than magic, and more reliable. It can't be dispelled...
And if you have two high-magic nations right next door, you arm you army with cheap reliable superior weapons and march on them and stomp them into the ground.
Not too mention Cost effective - yes, the cheapest pistol is 1.400 GP and a musket is 1.800 GP. But bullets being 10 bullets/1 GP and Gunpowder (have to go with 3,5 DMG here since I couldn't find the price for powder either in the books or on the messageboards) comes in at 2 lbs./35 GP (32 oz. = 32 shots).
So, by the time I have fired 100 rounds from a pistol (Pistol, 1.400 GP+100 bullets, 10 GP+64 oz. of gunpowder, 70 GP = 1.480 GP) it's already cheaper than going through two wands of MM (1.500 GP) - and I still have enough powder left over for another 12 shots, I will also have done more damage as the 750 GP wand will have been prepared with 1st level MM = 1d4+1, whereas the pistol does 1d6 =)
Of course all this goes on the supposition that gunpowder = 35 GP for 32 oz. powderhorn or 250 GP for 1 15-lb.(capacity) keg - which it probably isn't seeing as to how gunpoweder is scarce ("Thanks to the scarcity of gunpowder in the world...")
Edited for spelling =)
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its easier to teach a eprson to use a gun than to understand magic
so while you can have a few individuals with Use Magic Devce, you can train a decent unit of humans in the use of firearms and how to give them maitenance... the mosquette has longer reach than a magic missile and does more damage, still the magic missle hits automatically
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So while your army has maybe two dozen or so people capable using your Magic Missile wands, (a few blowing up during the fight) my army would have several hundred with guns. Mmmmm let me see... which would I choose...
You have your two mages casting area effect spells, and I let loose with a hundred canons... mmmm which would I choose...
Also, for your non-mage-wand-wielding lackeys, 5% of them will be doomed in 2 minutes... natural 1s so suck... I could just sit back and let them blow themselves up before I really even expend any ammo on the survivors.
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Until your army is annihilated by the magical area of effect weapons for the enemy....
It seems we have a clash of ideologies: magic versus technology. This, I believe, is the stuff of adventure paths (hint, hint). Only an AP could resolve the dispute. Perhaps the pro-magic camp is right: Alkenstar would be at a disadvantage. But this would only be due to the fact that gunpowder is scarce in the Galorian--scarce in the world yes, but not so in this small region which has the knowledge and resources to produce it on a massive scale. Furthermore, I would posit that Gunmarshals are savvy to the wily ways of spellcasters, including those nasty area effect spells. They would know the proper countermeasures, such as ordering their troupes into dispersed skirmisher lines. But in the event that it ever came down to war between the nations, I’m sure the Grand Duchess herself would have enough wisdom to take the unprecedented and drastic action of hiring outsider PCs, some of whom presumably are spellcasters themselves, to provide just the extra muscle needed to tip the scales in Alkenstar’s favor. Of course there's a catch: the PCs would just have to promise never to reveal themselves as spellcasters.
Yes Matt Muller! Okay maybe not a full AP but maybe a 3 part adventure series?
So while your army has maybe two dozen or so people.
Actually I object to this point.
Warriors with Exotic Weapon Proficiency + Weapon Focus
vs
Experts with Skill Focus + Magical Aptitude + 1 Rank in a Class Skill.
It is only slightly more effort to train someone to use magic on the battlefield, but not that much more.
Again, optimizing each troop for maximum chances to hit/succeed. One could always drop Weapon Focus and Magical Aptitude to increase the ranks with inferior troops. Additionally the wanders will have other skills such as stealth and perception, along with a better training in terrain and tactics.
They will not explode as they are not activating blindly, actually I would have been more likely to clearly mark each wand and give it a unique number/mark on top of that. Also once one particular wand goes dead for an individual they can swap with someone else who's wand has stopped working.
Hundreds of cannons that take time to setup, load, and fire. Which may very well miss, or shoot the wrong targets (see silent image's 20 illusory troops per use). I also don't need the Wizards to use fireball, all of my troops can use my handful of fireball wands for a 600 foot, 100% accurate death ball.
The thing to remember is that within Alkenstar's borders, Alkenstar's got the guns. Outside of Alkenstar's borders, they still have their guns and they cane hire mercenaries or make alliances to get magic on their side. Similarly, their emenies could scrounge the best they could to get a few guns.
Guns won out in our world for a variety of reasons, some of which are shared by magic in Golarion (range, the ability to ignore armour, taking out multiple people at once) but there are some things about guns that magic can't easily replicate-- ease of use with relatively little training, cost effectiveness once a source of the required elements is secured, etc.,.
War is all about logistics and supply, so whomever can use diplomacy, technology, magic, recruitment, training, industry, etc., to pursue those ends the best is going to win.
It also might be worth noting that within Alkenstar, guns may not count as exotic weapons. Or those trained in its army might get the proficiency for free. Just like 14th century England, where almost every able bodied male might get a free longbow proficiency.
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Golarion is, for the most part, not a "guns in fantasy" world. Yet it IS supposed to be a world where everyone can find at least one corner of the world that they really enjoy. Thus, we have a gun/tech region with Alkenstar (along with vikings, science fiction/fantasy, pirates, and other specific "D&D" traditions elsewhere).
thanx
catus
yes, we know, we just want to convince them on their idea or no more info on Alkensar :P, which will be hard... :P
James is against it :P
Yes Matt Muller! Okay maybe not a full AP but maybe a 3 part adventure series?
So while your army has maybe two dozen or so people.Actually I object to this point.
Warriors with Exotic Weapon Proficiency + Weapon Focus
vs
Experts with Skill Focus + Magical Aptitude + 1 Rank in a Class Skill.It is only slightly more e to train someone to use magic on the battlefield, but not that much more.
** spoiler omitted **
The other key points are:
The wand of magic missiles either fires or it doesn't. Unless you roll a mishap, no charges are expended for failure to activate.Magic missle auto hits, doesn't care about cover or striking targets engaged in melee.
The gun has range, expends ammo on a miss and cares about cover.
Huh, I can't find ammunition costs in the Pathfinder campaign setting book. Must still be relying on the 3.5 DMG. That's something that could now be expanded on, along with black powder siege weapons (cannons). There also isn't any indication that Alkenstar gunsmiths have developed things like grapeshot.
In a 'war' of independence from Nex (the most likely) an Alkenstar army would have to deal with the wasteland of that nation. Geb is also a bad nation to assault, with its undead that tend to be resistant to injures produced by gunfire.
frozenwastes, training a new recruit from scratch to use magic is only slightly more difficult then teaching someone in Pathfinder to use a gun. I guess the big difference comes when you are 'retraining' experienced troops to use your weapon. It is much harder to retrain someone to use magic. You could also place guns in untrained hands to bolster the ranks... however they are far less likely to actually hit anything.
(What's amusing to me is that I'm actually pro techo-magic things :D.)
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Huh, I can't find ammunition costs in the Pathfinder campaign setting book. Must still be relying on the 3.5 DMG. That's something that could now be expanded on, along with black powder siege weapons (cannons). There also isn't any indication that Alkenstar gunsmiths have developed things like grapeshot.
In a 'war' of independence from Nex (the most likely) an Alkenstar army would have to deal with the wasteland of that nation. Geb is also a bad nation to assault, with its undead that tend to be resistant to injures produced by gunfire.
Ammo for firearms appears on page 211 of the PCCS, listed under "Ammunition." Basically, 10 bullets costs 1 gp. It doesn't matter what kind of gun those bullets are going in; they all cost the same (even though bullets are all different sizes).
In any event, while I'm pleased that Alkenstar and guns are inspiring so much creativity and chat, we're unlikely to do much more with guns or Alkenstar in an official product any time soon. We included firearms in the game for the same reason we included psionics; they're popular additions among some folk, and we want Golarion to be able to accommodate all styles of play. Yet when we develop official products beyond the basic campaign, we want to skew those products' focuses toward areas WE want to explore... and the mix of guns (and modern technology in general) and fantasy isn't one of those things.
Some might call it ironic, but we're MUCH MUCH MUCH more likely to do something big and exciting with Numeria and its laser guns and space ships and robots than we are to do with modern day guns. Because lasers and robots fit better into a fantasy setting, I think, than mundane real-world tech.
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You have your two mages casting area effect spells, and I let loose with a hundred canons... mmmm which would I choose...
Do you remember how clumsy to wield the first kind of cannons were ? How likely they wre to blow up in your face ? And the Slooooooow rate of fire ?
Oooohhhhh : and the dependance over a supply of HIGHLY FLAMMABLE gunpowder ... it just takes one smart mage and a fireball to blow up maybe ... 50 % of your army in one round ?
A good old fasioned Knight charge should rout the rest ... assuming their morale means they would still want to fight after that.
Just saying.
And don't let me start about the "Taldor tactics". There are so many ways to take care of annoying foreign armies.
Ammo for firearms appears on page 211 of the PCCS, listed under "Ammunition."
Okay, defiantly time to make another appointment with the optometrist because that must have been sitting in blind spot. XD
Some might call it ironic, but we're MUCH MUCH MUCH more likely to do something big and exciting with Numeria and its laser guns and space ships and robots than we are to do with modern day guns.
Ya lasers! Lasers are far more fantastical because they make pretty lights, like magic does. Its why I would consider fireworks to be more worthy of inclusion in a fantasy setting before standard guns.
Here is an off topic question but would lasers bounce off the Tarrasque's highly reflective carapace?
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i suppose Alkensar would change to much the kind of game PF offers us...
simply no magic... asn in 0 magic... no spells, no potions, no wondrous items, no nothing :P
It would be interesting to see a normal party survive here an encounter to their "level"
the questions is... what does Alkensar technology can do well that it has keeped it instead of blown away from the face of the world
and James, you msut admit that the mana wastes are an intriguing a n interesting location for adventure!
i suppose Alkensar would change to much the kind of game PF offers us...
simply no magic... asn in 0 magic... no spells, no potions, no wondrous items, no nothing :PIt would be interesting to see a normal party survive here an encounter to their "level"
It would be interesting. My first thought upon reading about Alkenstar was that it would create a less than wonderful dynamic in the typical party. The wizard, sorcerer, druid, cleric, and any other magic using class looses their shtick while fighters, rogues, etc., effectively remain at full power.
I'm sure players would find the challenge of attempting to be effective without their character's main strength interesting for a short while, but it would get pretty boring/frustrating pretty quickly. Any protracted campaign time in there would effectively be saying to any player of a magic using class that they get to play the class they wanted, but with no spells, class abilities, etc.,.
Now a campaign designed from the get go to be in Alkenstar could be all sorts of different kinds of awesome.
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It would be interesting. My first thought upon reading about Alkenstar was that it would create a less than wonderful dynamic in the typical party. The wizard, sorcerer, druid, cleric, and any other magic using class looses their shtick while fighters, rogues, etc., effectively remain at full power.
I'm sure players would find the challenge of attempting to be effective without their character's main strength interesting for a short while, but it would get pretty boring/frustrating pretty quickly. Any protracted campaign time in there would effectively be saying to any player of a magic using class that they get to play the class they wanted, but with no spells, class abilities, etc.,.
Now a campaign designed from the get go to be in Alkenstar could be all sorts of different kinds of awesome.
I agree all spellcaster would want nothing but a short incursion... there must be priest, just there is no magic for them...
so we need to see how the other classes fare... they must have medics for those grievous wounds with gunpowder and monsters (do we have an expert or an actual Medic?), bard and wizards are passed above from what they are, and are only targeted as spellcasters... but their scholar side?
I know this all can be done by the expert... do we want the expert doing that by himself?
Alkensar offers a unique posibility in Golarion... a medium where you need to fill the gaps magic leaves... now we need mechanics, medics, scholars... the fighter now not only needs to know how to use his weapon... its a delicate piece of artillery, he needs the knowledge to maintain it, to repair it, etc...
here the problem of 2 skills +int mod is more gruesome than anywhere else? why, ebsides the point that the rogue is the skill monkey, part of the concept is that magic will deal with everything else... at least that is the explanation received aboout a wizard with 2 skills + int mod... considering they msut be knowledgeable... but because they have magic they don't deserve skills... anyway...
Alkensar offers unique oportunities...
ok there won't be many magic monsters... still the players need solutions against those creatures who are already with high AC and BaB... a normal creature CR 6 would make pieces a level 6 party at close quarters now that they are without magic at all...
while I understand, they might not like it, might thing it too much of a challenge or are uninterested... but here yes there is a section fo the worl were guns are the oen thing that make the difference between survival and a nasty-gritty death... what place more lethal than a place where you can't cheat death?
Cinderlands? no
World Wound? you can fight fire with fire and still have healing... so no
Alkensar really looks now like an interesting place :D
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Creative Director
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and James, you msut admit that the mana wastes are an intriguing a n interesting location for adventure!
Actually, I'm not really all that interested in the mana wastes, and would not enjoy playing or running a game set there. Just not my style of play for fantasy RPGs. But it's important to have elements like that in the game, since Golarion is for everyone, not just for me! :-)
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and James, you must admit that the mana wastes are an intriguing a n interesting location for adventure!Actually, I'm not really all that interested in the mana wastes, and would not enjoy playing or running a game set there. Just not my style of play for fantasy RPGs. But it's important to have elements like that in the game, since Golarion is for everyone, not just for me! :-)
je indeed, for each its own