We all know that Detect Evil kind of breaks the game when searching for a villain, hiring mercenaries, etc. In doubt? Just cast detect evil and you'll know if that mercenary fighter is evil without having to role-play at all. (I realize the high level villains can all have objects to block this, but that's only high level baddies)
What I am thinking of doing for my 3.X game (Savage Tide) is to have Detect alignment type spells not work on characters/NPCs. Have it work for spell effects, magic items, etc, but not a person. I realize this is potentially sticky, as what monsters would then detect as evil or good? Only ones that were magic and not natural in origin?
What are the consequences that you can see for this houserule, good or bad?
Thanks in advance.
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I've always ruled detect (alignment) didn't work against "weak" auras. The miller cutting the wheat? The foppish dandy shining up tot he society widow in hopes of stealing her fortune? The unassuming gent who always slips some coin into the orphan box at the temple? Nah, auras are too weak, too "mortal".
Clerics? Paladins? Evil Necromancers who make deals with powerful undead? They have an aura.
I've always thought it silly that a paladin could walk down the street and just "see" who the evil people were. Most human evil is far too venal and petty to register on the grand scale of alignments.
The spells will detect someone who has a strong connection to their alignment, and critters with a strong connection to the same, but otherwise, they're too much of a buzz kill if you have a huckster who barely qualifies as evil (but isn't "pure" enough for neutral) trying to hustle the party, only to have the Paladin automatically KNOW he isn't right. Why even have sense motive if there's a paladin in the party?
Pathfinder's rule is a good one. Alternately, you could revise it to more closely mimic find traps. In this case, it allow the caster to make a Sense Motive check (possibly with a bonus provided by the spell and tied to caster level such as in the aforementioned model spell). If the check is succsseful, you detect the evil. If not, you can't tell if the check just failed or if the person simply isn't evil.
The DC would probablu need to be tied to HD, with bonuses for clerics, undead, outsiders, and other characters and creatures of unusual devotion and/or connection to their alignment.
I've done paladin Detect Evil two different ways, and both of them work.
The first is to rule that a paladin's Detect Evil only detects supernatural evil, ie. the influence of Hell. Meaning that the otherwise nice and kind but foolish or desperate clerk who made a bargain with an imp will detect as Evil, but the murdering bandit or plotting wazir? Not so much.
The other rule is to follow the RAW to the letter, but assume that all alignments have an equal demographic spread, so a third of the people you meet are going to be evil, and good luck finding a successful merchant or moneychanger who isn't.
A third option is to allow all intelligent beings a saving throw against divinations, including alignment detection spells.
I've done paladin Detect Evil two different ways, and both of them work.
The first is to rule that a paladin's Detect Evil only detects supernatural evil, ie. the influence of Hell. Meaning that the otherwise nice and kind but foolish or desperate clerk who made a bargain with an imp will detect as Evil, but the murdering bandit or plotting wazir? Not so much.
The other rule is to follow the RAW to the letter, but assume that all alignments have an equal demographic spread, so a third of the people you meet are going to be evil, and good luck finding a successful merchant or moneychanger who isn't.
A third option is to allow all intelligent beings a saving throw against divinations, including alignment detection spells.
You could always simply have it only detect enemies of their faith after all what other reason could their patron deity have to grant them the ability to sense any evil entity within range unless it was for the benfit of their patron?
Okay cleric's, necromancers', undead register but so should paladins of opposing faiths even if they're LG too after all an enemy of their faith should register as evil even if its only because of their faith not their alignment which should never be so easily identified when there's no reason for it to do so.
You could always simply have it only detect enemies of their faith after all what other reason could their patron deity have to grant them the ability to sense any evil entity within range unless it was for the benfit of their patron?
Okay cleric's, necromancers', undead register but so should paladins of opposing faiths even if they're LG too after all an enemy of their faith should register as evil even if its only because of their faith not their alignment which should never be so easily identified when there's no reason for it to do so.
It all depends on how you view the metaphysics of auras and the omnipotence of gods.
Even if you decide that one god could grant one of their followers the ability to detect those who've transgressed against their god's commandments (Don't lie, Don't steal, Don't cast Evocations on a Tuesday, whatever), you'd have to grant some other god the power to shield their faithful worshippers from the prying eyes of some other god's nosy paladins.
With my current game, I rule that necromancy and undeath do not necessarily detect as evil. They're like poison: unchivalrous, icky-nasty, woman's-weapon-girly-stuff, but not necessarily evil. Just as a farmwife does not have to be a high level assassin to poison a few rats, the same farmwife can use some minor witchcraft to kill the rats with necromancy and no one's going to be that put out. If she leaves the rat poison or the hex bags where the neighbor's children can get into them, that might be bad, but that's criminal negligence as opposed to actual malice.
Similarly, mindless undead are not evil in and of themselves, but certainly can be. Think of leaving an unlocked car in a bad neighborhood with the motor running. All sorts of dark spirits too weak to even possess a rat would be overjoyed to find an unoccupied body to possess.
Two alternate possibilities:
1. A thin layer of something (like makeup) blocks a detect evil spell. Even an illusion, a disguise, or something like that. This lets you salt "suspicious" and actual Evil people out there who aren't the bad guys. Then you mess with your players when they accuse them and they are indeed evil, but they have friends in high places.
2. Change the range to a touch spell. Imagine spellcasting while touching anything for a couple rounds? Kinda tough. Makes for some fun RP episodes though when you have to manuever into position.
Similarly, mindless undead are not evil in and of themselves, but certainly can be. Think of leaving an unlocked car in a bad neighborhood with the motor running. All sorts of dark spirits too weak to even possess a rat would be overjoyed to find an unoccupied body to possess.
This makes sense as a house rule, of course, but per the RAW, I do believe you'll find even mindless skeletons and zombies listed as evil. Some things are apparently just always bad in the D&Dverse, no matter how weak. I do think the only non-evil undead one can find, at least in the MM, is the ghost, and even then it's only the possibility of not being evil.
Two alternate possibilities:
1. A thin layer of something (like makeup) blocks a detect evil spell. Even an illusion, a disguise, or something like that. This lets you salt "suspicious" and actual Evil people out there who aren't the bad guys. Then you mess with your players when they accuse them and they are indeed evil, but they have friends in high places.
That's actually brilliant, and there's even a justification in the RAW: a thin sheet of lead blocks detection spells.
What does this have to do with face paint? Well, up until very recently, the face paint of choice was white lead. Toxic, certainly, especially when combined with red mercury for lipstick and rouge, but the sort of facepaint you'd find in any Disguise Kit, and something easily compounded by any alchemist.
I don't think there's anything wrong with ruling that white lead counts as a thin sheet of lead.
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I would rule that Undead of all kinds detect as evil for the fact that they are animated by negative energy.
The idea of how ambiguous a detect alignment spell would work all depends on your idea of alignments in general. It has been my experience that everyone has a different opinion, and it's the leading cause of long-winded arguments in the middle of a session. An assassin could have a soft spot for fluffy bunnies, squealing any time she sees a fluffy animal and still be a cold-hearted murderer. A paladin could be racist. It's all about how you look at it.
And don't get me started on the whole "they're evil to ME, so they should detect as such" discussion. The original D&D alignment system is set in a very black-and-white way for a reason. This is good, that is evil. Evil gods have hells, good gods have heavens, and you go to one of them based on your alignment/god when you die.
That being said, I agree with the idea that weak people (less than 5HD) probably shouldn't detect at all unless they are particularly vile (a 1HD cultist that slaughters babies). But I completely disagree with the "point of view" detection method, as detailed in the previous paragraph because then the whole game revolves around alignment debates.
I think part of the trouble her is the idea that
negative energy = evil, & positive energy = good, when there are a whole lot of evil people successfully running their evil existences on positive current, and the more than occasional good ghost running their good existence on negative current.
If being filled with living energy does not automatically make you good, it stands to reason that being filled with unliving energy does not make you evil either.
Unless you're living in Ravenloft, where just looking cross-eyed at someone can be cause for a Dark Powers Check (or at least shoplifting can, by the RAW), you should probably set the bar for capital E evil a little bit higher. Otherwise your paladin is detecting everyone they meet, from the baby murdering cultist on down to the old lady who casts False Life on herself because an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure (even if False Life is technically wicked foul soul-damning eeeevil necromancy).
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I would rule that Undead of all kinds detect as evil for the fact that they are animated by negative energy.
If undead are powered by negative energy, a case could be made that the living are powered by positive energy. Then, shouldn't all living creatures detect as good?
And, isn't there a one-armed serpentine monster that animates objects with positive energy (I can't remember the name for the life of me)? Should those objects detect as good?If necromancy is evil, shouldn't all necromancy spells have the Evil tag? If negative energy is evil, shouldn't all the Inflict spells have the Evil tag?
Just sayin'... The 3.5 switch for undead from Neutral to Always Neutral Evil is one of my pet peeves. But I do happen to have a soft spot for necromancers :D
Back on topic, I really like the idea of creatures not blipping the radar until they hit 5HD. The exceptions, of course, are any creature that has an aligned subtype, or any creature (like a cleric) that specifically mentions that it has an aligned aura.
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I can't remember wich issue it was in, and right now I'm to lazy to go through my obscene collection of issues (every freaking one!) but there was an article in one of the later dragons I beleive that offered alt versions of detect evil... such as detect sin/guilt, that would make a great replacement spell allowing you to sow suspicion but no hard proof of wrong doing.
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Wow, I kinda got jumped right there. Okay, any mindless undead automatically detect as evil because of the negative energy. Undead with personality (because personality can go a long way) get to choose, I guess. Whatever gets you guys off my back ;)
I was ruling off of negative=harmful and positive=healing, as in the inflict and cure spells, respectively. Both of those directly channel their respective energy, with one causing harm and one reversing harm. When you delve too deeply into individual motives, like if this undead was created with the intent of doing good but that one was created with the intent of doing malice, it becomes too ambiguous.
[sarcasm]But the axe-murderer said he's sorry, shouldn't he detect as good now?[/sarcasm]
To make everything easier, you could just have your players write down a personality profile for their characters and just throw alignment out the freakin' window.
By the way, the whole question-argument thing is kinda condescending, making it sound as if I made a gigantic and widely insulting blanket statement. And while it was technically a blanket statement, it was still valid as good undead are the exception, not the rule as the evil ones are.
';..;'
The RAW for Detect Evil in 3.5e lists all undead as registering. It doesn't specify that the undead have to be evil.
What are the consequences that you can see for this houserule, good or bad?
I suggest that you include non-undead and -outsiders [and possibly -aberrations] as "people" for the purpose of being excluded from Detect Evil. Other than that, I don't see anything that won't work just fine.
In 2e, Detect Evil only detected current evil intent, not whether a creature was Evil. So a paladin looking directly at the BBEG wouldn't have any idea unless the BBEG was planning to commit a sin right at that moment. I like your rule though.
There's actually a very interesting essay on the subject over here in the Tome of Necromancy:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=632562
Basically, we're rehashing the "Crawling Darkness" option vs. the "Playing with Fire" option.
I tend to be more of a "Playing with Fire" sort of DM. Not that I don't think there's can't be a "Crawling Darkness" sort of entity out there, just that it doesn't necessarily have to be the case.
My favorite answer has always been a simple little item that I came up with.
Amulet of Hidden Darkness
This amulet foils any attempt to detect the targets alignment through Detect Evil/Good/Law/Chaos. Further more the amulet itself does not radiate any magic that can be picked up with Detect Magic. Anyone using Analyze Dweomer, Arcane Sight and Greater Arcane Sight who examines the amulet may make a DC 11 Will save to detect the magic of the amulet.
CL 1, Cost 3,500pg, Undetectable Alignment, Nystul's Magical Aura.
Basically the item is simply a use activated Undetectable Alignment with a constant Nystul's Magical Aura to prevent it from getting picked up by Detect Magic. Also with the rules in the DMG you can pay 1500gp to add a permanent Nystul's Magical Aura to an item. This can be used to make either stealth items that can't be detected with detect magic or really gaudy items so that it seems the bad guy (or hero) has tons of magical gear without really having much.
PS if it is just to make a nonmagical item seem magic it only costs 1000gp.
My favorite answer has always been a simple little item that I came up with.
Amulet of Hidden Darkness
This amulet foils any attempt to detect the targets alignment through Detect Evil/Good/Law/Chaos. Further more the amulet itself does not radiate any magic that can be picked up with Detect Magic. Anyone using Analyze Dweomer, Arcane Sight and Greater Arcane Sight who examines the amulet may make a DC 11 Will save to detect the magic of the amulet.
CL 1, Cost 3,500pg, Undetectable Alignment, Nystul's Magical Aura.
Basically the item is simply a use activated Undetectable Alignment with a constant Nystul's Magical Aura to prevent it from getting picked up by Detect Magic. Also with the rules in the DMG you can pay 1500gp to add a permanent Nystul's Magical Aura to an item. This can be used to make either stealth items that can't be detected with detect magic or really gaudy items so that it seems the bad guy (or hero) has tons of magical gear without really having much.
PS if it is just to make a nonmagical item seem magic it only costs 1000gp.
I'm thinking you're wanting Nystul's Undetectable Aura there instead.
In any case, I've always house ruled, since 1st ed, that Amulets of Nondetection have the Undetectable Aura as a built-in feature, since there's really no point in having a magical amulet that shields you from all detection but glows like the One Ring itself.
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You could always copy the Pathfinder version where mortal, non-undead. non-clericy, non-outsider evil under 5 HD is just too weak to register.
That is more the original rule, with some updating, and leaving the spell as is. (And a good change by Jason at that.)
Specifically:
"It is important to make a distinction between character alignment and
some powerful force of evil or good when this detection function is considered. In general, only a know alignment spell will determine the evil or good a character holds within. It must be a great evil or a strong good to be detected. Characters who are very strongly aligned, do not stray from their faith, and who are of relatively high level (at least 8th or higher) might radiate evil or good if they are intent upon appropriate actions. Powerful monsters such as demons, devils, ki-rin and the like will send forth emanations of their evil or good. Aligned undead must radiate evil, far it is this power and negative force which enables them to continue existing. Note that none of these emonations are noticeable without magical detection."
-1st ed DMG, page 60
So high level, very alignment driven, and intent on alignment relevant actions to be detected.
Likewise the spell had a shorter range, 10 feet only, which was adjacent at the scale used then, and had a shorter duration, 1 turn + 1/2 turn per level, a turn being 10 rounds. (While a round was 1 minute and a turn thus 10 minutes, you still had the limit on actions making it effectively a D20 OGL duration of 1 minute + 5 rounds/level.)
To really determine someone's alignment you needed the 2nd level cleric spell know alignment, which had the same 10 foot/adjacent range, and only lasted 1 turn, allowing the identification of only 10 creatures per casting.
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By the way, the whole question-argument thing is kinda condescending, making it sound as if I made a gigantic and widely insulting blanket statement. And while it was technically a blanket statement, it was still valid as good undead are the exception, not the rule as the evil ones are.
No offense meant! You're right that your blanket statement was valid; it was more than valid, it was RAW.
As I implied earlier, I have a personal axe to grind with the "all undead are Evil" concept. Your post just happened to be the one I picked on :D
My favorite answer has always been a simple little item that I came up with.
Amulet of Hidden Darkness
This amulet foils any attempt to detect the targets alignment through Detect Evil/Good/Law/Chaos. Further more the amulet itself does not radiate any magic that can be picked up with Detect Magic. Anyone using Analyze Dweomer, Arcane Sight and Greater Arcane Sight who examines the amulet may make a DC 11 Will save to detect the magic of the amulet.
CL 1, Cost 3,500pg, Undetectable Alignment, Nystul's Magical Aura.
Basically the item is simply a use activated Undetectable Alignment with a constant Nystul's Magical Aura to prevent it from getting picked up by Detect Magic. Also with the rules in the DMG you can pay 1500gp to add a permanent Nystul's Magical Aura to an item. This can be used to make either stealth items that can't be detected with detect magic or really gaudy items so that it seems the bad guy (or hero) has tons of magical gear without really having much.
PS if it is just to make a nonmagical item seem magic it only costs 1000gp.
I'm thinking you're wanting Nystul's Undetectable Aura there instead.
In any case, I've always house ruled, since 1st ed, that Amulets of Nondetection have the Undetectable Aura as a built-in feature, since there's really no point in having a magical amulet that shields you from all detection but glows like the One Ring itself.
I disagree with that. Nondetection in and of itself will foil the detect magic when the item is being worn unless the caster beats the caster level check to overcome the nondetection. Nystul's is overkill for the most part. I thought it was an appropriet extra since it didn't raise the cost too much. It's also nice to have an excuse when the party "why couldn't we detect it?" I had an Anti-Paladin travel with the party for a while wearing one. One of my favorite scenes was when he actually showed the amulet to one of the party members without the party member realizing what it was. Of course that was because it was in the shape of a locket that had a small portrait of the guy's wife and kid.
Contributor
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For what its worth, my house rule has always been to make detect alignment spells into touch spells.
I like the drama of that. PCs figuring out how to touch someone, say at a party, without being detected or while being thought just to be rude. Sneaking up on creatures. All sorts of fun.
When my players demanded it -- or invented it themselves -- I made a much higher level version for the detect alignment spells with range, but they required a CL check vs. 11 + HD to work.
What are the consequences that you can see for this houserule, good or bad?I suggest that you include non-undead and -outsiders [and possibly -aberrations] as "people" for the purpose of being excluded from Detect Evil. Other than that, I don't see anything that won't work just fine.
Perhaps for beings of higher than animal intelligence and low enought power level? It's hard to think though that a dretch or lemure wouldn't detect as evil though, and a unicorn good.