I agree, I love that this is exactly what it says, a book revisiting the Dragons :) And a very very good revisit it is!
I do not have this book yet, I hope to but I can't wait to take a look at it. How does it compare to the Draconomicon, the 3rd edition one btw?
I do not have this book yet, I hope to but I can't wait to take a look at it. How does it compare to the Draconomicon, the 3rd edition one btw?
That I can't say, as we never picked up the 3.0 version (but somehow got two of the 2nd edition ones ::chuckle::)
If you've seen Classic Monsters Revisited, I can say the dragons get the same sort of love and detail that those ten nasties received. Gorgeous art, fantastic detail, and each dragon type feels unique to its kind, yet part of the greater whole of dragonkind.
I'm guessing they're subscribers, aren't having their subscriptions bundled, and either have really fast mail service or are downloading their PDF copies.
I'm still waiting for the notification that I've been billed for mine so I can get my PDF. ::sniff::
Really Paris? You might check on that in your downloads and your orders, I got mine Tuesday (set to ship with Pathfinder fyi).
I've read a couple entries and skimmed the rest, pretty cool! Great to see Mike's work again!
Ditto on the thank you to Mike and Paizo. This one is sure to be an another quick sellout/best seller.
Yea, subscribers get stuff early. I don't have my physical copy yet. I just have the PDF.
Contributor
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Really Paris? You might check on that in your downloads and your orders, I got mine Tuesday (set to ship with Pathfinder fyi).
I don't have it in my downloads, yet. It usually doesn't show up until I get the e-mail that I've been billed for the products.
I think the difference is that my orders are held to ship in one monthly shipment. However, the fact that Lisa says Pathfinder #20 is shipping next week, even though I haven't received notification for billing and shipping of Pathfinder #19 has me a little worried.
I miss my Pathfindery goodness!
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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*sigh*
Ship Damn you, ship! :-(
Do you have your sub set to ship monthly? If so, you will have to wait until next week for it to ship with PF #20 and Blood of Dragonscar.
-Lisa
Yes I do. One of the perils I know. Doesn't mean I can't gripe about it. ;-)
"I hate waiting," Inego Montoya.
I'm going to be unpopular for saying this...but...
I found the book interesting. Alot of fluff material, which has it's uses, but is still just fluff. I'm not saying that I wanted prestige classes and magical items and what not, but honestly it was a good read...and one that I don't see myself cracking the cover of again for some time as it sits on my bookshelf.
I would have liked to have seen something that shows how the Golarion dragons are different. Perhaps, just shooting from the hip, vulnerabilities for each dragon type? something that makes them unique from any other fantasy setting dragons...
Wait how do you guys have copies already? I went to my game shop and they said it isn't due out until middle of April?
My husband is the subscriber in our household, and we received our copies of Dragons, LoF 19 and the LoF Player's Guide on Saturday :) Needless to say, I didn't get much done this weekend!
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but is still just fluff.I would have liked to have seen something that shows how the Golarion dragons are different.
The fluff is what makes them different. In the past, environment and breath weapon were the sole differentiators between dragons when planning an adventure. Oh, it's a swamp. Guess I'll use a black dragon. Oh, the adventurers have a one-shot magical item that grants them resistance to fire. Red dragon it is.
Now, the dragons have niches. They have roles and places in the campaign setting. They're players on the international stage. You can interact with them on a level beyond which magic weapon you pull from your golf bag of magic weapons.
Also, the Revisted lines *are* just fluff. Complaining about that is like complaining that your dog doesn't meow.
but is still just fluff.I would have liked to have seen something that shows how the Golarion dragons are different.
The fluff is what makes them different. In the past, environment and breath weapon were the sole differentiators between dragons when planning an adventure. Oh, it's a swamp. Guess I'll use a black dragon. Oh, the adventurers have a one-shot magical item that grants them resistance to fire. Red dragon it is.
Now, the dragons have niches. They have roles and places in the campaign setting. They're players on the international stage. You can interact with them on a level beyond which magic weapon you pull from your golf bag of magic weapons.
Also, the Revisted lines *are* just fluff. Complaining about that is like complaining that your dog doesn't meow.
Sorry, you gain no ground on me saying "the fluff is what makes them different". Again, I would have liked to see some innovations..vulnerabilities...some things tied into the dragon concept as a creature that makes them stand out from the pack and be DIFFERENT than other fantasy settings dragons.
Oh, and btw...your opinion has as much value as mine does....Glad you liked the product...I was non-plussed by it entirely.
Creative Director
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Golarion's dragons aren't supposed to be different, mechanically, from the dragons in the SRD, though. Just as with Classic Monsters Revisited, we wanted to preserve the SRD stats and simply expand on them; the goal of this line of books is not to add dozens of new variations and crunchy bits.
This was especially a goal for Dragons Revisited, though. We wanted to keep it relatively crunch light, since when it was being written, we weren't sure about where the game would be (3.5 vs. Pathfinder RPG vs. 4th edition) when the book released, and so we wanted it to be a book folks could use with ANY game system.
I'm not saying a crunch-light book was the right choice. Just giving reasons why the book is what it is.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Really Paris? You might check on that in your downloads and your orders, I got mine Tuesday (set to ship with Pathfinder fyi).I don't have it in my downloads, yet. It usually doesn't show up until I get the e-mail that I've been billed for the products.
I think the difference is that my orders are held to ship in one monthly shipment. However, the fact that Lisa says Pathfinder #20 is shipping next week, even though I haven't received notification for billing and shipping of Pathfinder #19 has me a little worried.
I miss my Pathfindery goodness!
"Hold for Monthly Shipment" means you're getting one shipment this month, and it will include both #19 and #20, and all the other products. If you had chosen "Hold for Pathfinder," we'd have shipped #19 (and associated products) last week, and #20 (and associated products) next week.
Clearly, as you're complaining about a lack of mechanical innovation in a product that has always been written and promoted as being as mechanics free as possible. You can hate it for not meowing all you want, but you bought something that's clearly labeled "dog".
I was non-plussed by it entirely.
Jesus H. whatever....all I did was voice my damned opinion...and you just cannot accept that, can you?
You're also reading alot into what I stated...'
What in the hell is the problem with what I stated? I gave the company feedback on the product. I said it was a good read, but I found little to no value for it in my game.
I'm not saying a crunch-light book was the right choice. Just giving reasons why the book is what it is.
James, I'm not saying I wanted something crunchy (for the fifteenth F%^$%^ing time...sorry, not directed at you). All I am saying is that I could have used, as a GM, something more. I found the book to be purely fluff, and not offer me much more of anything that I could use in my game.
That's all I meant. Apparently, giving feedback is unacceptable to some others here on the boards. Apparently, you only get warm fuzzy feelings thrown your way when you put the sheep costume on and fall into line.....
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Creative Director
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I'm not saying a crunch-light book was the right choice. Just giving reasons why the book is what it is.James, I'm not saying I wanted something crunchy (for the fifteenth F%^$%^ing time...sorry, not directed at you). All I am saying is that I could have used, as a GM, something more. I found the book to be purely fluff, and not offer me much more of anything that I could use in my game.
That's all I meant. Apparently, giving feedback is unacceptable to some others here on the boards. Apparently, you only get warm fuzzy feelings thrown your way when you put the sheep costume on and fall into line.....
Trust me... there's no shortage of non-warm fuzzies directed at Paizo on the internet.
Also, I'm not trying to criticize your criticism at all. I was just letting you know why the book was what it was.
That said... if you know something you post on the internet is going to be unpopular (as you mention in your first post), you should try not to be too put out when other posters prove you right. I'm sorry that some others have made antagonistic or aggressive posts in response to yours... but this IS the internet, after all. Flame-retardant clothes are important when exploring its deadly wilds! :)
And THAT said... to those of you who posted antagonistic replies, keep in mind that it's a lot easier to give Paizo and paizo.com a bad rep as being an unfriendly place by trying to defend us from criticism with overly aggressive posts, and that doesn't help anyone.
"Be nice to each other!" is the short version of my post.
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Clearly, as you're complaining about a lack of mechanical innovation in a product that has always been written and promoted as being as mechanics free as possible. You can hate it for not meowing all you want, but you bought something that's clearly labeled "dog".
I was non-plussed by it entirely.Jesus H. whatever....all I did was voice my damned opinion...and you just cannot accept that, can you?
You're also reading alot into what I stated...'
What in the hell is the problem with what I stated? I gave the company feedback on the product. I said it was a good read, but I found little to no value for it in my game.
Holy Smoke! Dude, stop, drop and roll!
I absolutely loved the first book, Classic Monsters Revisited, but was horrified at the overly simplistic way Minotaurs were treated. A great monster and potential monstrous society with all kinds of stories reduced to a single niche.
So, I can understand if not everything in the Dragons Revisited is all roses and butterflies. I still plan on buying it ASAP just because I love anything with dragons and well, it's Mike writing. I like his stuff!
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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I absolutely loved the first book, Classic Monsters Revisited, but was horrified at the overly simplistic way Minotaurs were treated. A great monster and potential monstrous society with all kinds of stories reduced to a single niche.
Classic Monsters lived on its Goblins, Gnolls and Ogres - these really were the sellers. Hobgoblins... please. Militaristic imperialists again? This was not so much revisiting them, rather than giving them the treatment they have gotten a few dozen times over. Minotaurs were... well. So unremarkable that I had to check they actually were in the book when i read this comment.
Nevertheless, the other races worked well enough to give the book a comfortable bit of shelf-space.
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Contributor
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"Hold for Monthly Shipment" means you're getting one shipment this month, and it will include both #19 and #20, and all the other products. If you had chosen "Hold for Pathfinder," we'd have shipped #19 (and associated products) last week, and #20 (and associated products) next week.
Aha! I've been doing it wrong! Thanks, Vic!
On a separate--and more philosophical note--one's opinion, alone, rarely makes one popular or unpopular. The way one presents that opinion or responds to those whose opinions differ has a much greater impact on one's popularity.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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for Classic Monsters Revisited, I too was disappointed in Hobgoblins, but the bugbears, goblins, orcs, and trolls made up for it. I took from the hobgoblin entry that they're clone troopers.
(My Hobgoblins are mongols, BTW)
That said, it scared the frak out of some PFS players when they were following military orders. Having a hobgoblin bark out. "Archer! Counterbattery fire! Ready! Aim! Fire!" then roll d20s unnerved players.
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I said it was a good read, but I found little to no value for it in my game.
If you had stopped there I would have shrugged and moved on. Different strokes and all. But you said it gave you little value for your game because it lacked something it never promised. You wanted innovation, and got "fluff"; I suggested the fluff was the innovation, and you dismissed the fluff entirely. If you wanted innovation, but didn't want it in the background material, that leaves the crunch. The "X Revisited" line is not meant to be about the crunch, something the company has gone on record several times about. I don't understand why you're disappointed that you got what was promised on the label.
You're welcome to all the opinions you want in the world, honest. I'm just pointing out that your opinion is based on a faulty premise.
You're welcome to all the opinions you want in the world, honest. I'm just pointing out that your opinion is based on a faulty premise.
Wow. Arrogant. Son. Of. A........
I feel all tingly surrounded by all this love.
Agreed.
Gentlemen, Ladies, please.
Enough already. Its obvious that some people were expecting different things than others, desire different things than others, etc. Might I recommend some of Lillith's delicious cookies and have a glass of milk along with them. And remember it is not wrong if you choose to dunk your cookie in your milk or if you eat your cookie and drink your milk seperately. What matters is that we all enjoy cookies.
All I am saying is that I could have used, as a GM, something more. I found the book to be purely fluff, and not offer me much more of anything that I could use in my game.
# feats: 3
stat blocks for: wyrm black, young adult blue, adult brass, juvenile bronze, old copper, great wyrm gold, very old green, great wyrm red, ancient silver, adult white. All of these are quite dissimilar to the pre-statted dragons in the MM (even the juvenile bronze in the MM and this book are quite different).So... you at least got 10 complete dragon stat blocks out of it, and given how annoying it is to put together one of them, that saved you a lot of work.
Just starting reading this last night, and so far all I can say is that it's awesome. I adore the revised blue, and the details of each dragon within Golarion (and in a few cases Golarion's planes) are seriously yummy.
I have the pdf, and I'm quite tempted to snag a physical copy as well.
All I am saying is that I could have used, as a GM, something more. I found the book to be purely fluff, and not offer me much more of anything that I could use in my game.# feats: 3
stat blocks for: wyrm black, young adult blue, adult brass, juvenile bronze, old copper, great wyrm gold, very old green, great wyrm red, ancient silver, adult white. All of these are quite dissimilar to the pre-statted dragons in the MM (even the juvenile bronze in the MM and this book are quite different).
Sean, first of all, I do appreciate the work that went into this effort. Frankly, I remain a customer and a subscriber because I *BELIEVE* in Paizo. I DO NOT BELIEVE in WoTC.
With regards to the feats, you got me. Those I can and will use.
TO EVERYONE, I ADMIT I WAS WRONG ON THIS POINT.
But the stat blocks offer me as a GM and the way I run a game no bonus. The "fluff" (story, background, written) material is good...it just didn't do anything that would be beneficial for me.
I bought the book, I'm glad I did as I believe in being a patron to the arts I use and appreciate...I just did not find this book, on the whole, useful to me.
What would you like to see in future books of this kind?
What would you like to see in future books of this kind?
Hmmm. I mean, the effort on your part is to give fluff and storyline, not crunch.
Honestly...I've been thinking about this for a few days. The only two things I could come up with were A) vulnerabilities to the dragon types and B) different types (although this would be new, and not revisited).
Here's a few more....Maybe psychosis that could occur at various age levels? Perhaps what an equivalent to catnip might be for the dragons? Possibly manners in which the dragons might trap their lairs (I had a red once that when I made the lair, it had a "front" lair full of flammable treasures (some oil soaked) and artworks...with a trap that released sawdust (supplied by charmed humans from a local sawmill) from the ceilings...very, very explosive and something that the dragon could use as a precursor to it's breathweapon when defending it's lair)....
Does any of this make sense? Could it possibly be viable?
Could there possibly be biological hazards involved in the lair of such a creature?
- Perhaps some form of disease spread from the dander, or even discarded and old scales of the creature (Believe me, I think a creature like this would find a way to attempt to scratch itself...not to mention that there would be dander from the wings)?
- Could they possibly have preferred symbiotes within their lairs that they intentionally nurture a relationship with?
- Might there be something about dragon urine or feces that could make things interesting?
I think that sort of stuff would be a good addition to this type of book.
I think that sort of stuff would be a good addition to this type of book.
WOOHOOO!!!!!
I'm packin mah bags for Paizo-land now!!!!!
i'M FEELIN all Sally Fields..."You like me!!! You really REALLY like ME!!!"
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Things are getting civil again... good!
I still plan on buying the book, no matter what.
But yeah the stuff he suggested are great additions. Things I hope to find, are how do the dragons interact with the lesser races and each other. What would a "typical" lair look like. And while stat blocks can be the exact same, it doesn't mean the personalities must be the same. Based upon the dragon creation myth, I expect Golarion dragons to behave VERY differently than those of other games.
I am tired of dragons that are little more than beasts and monsters. I want dragons that are masterminds behind civilization. For example, perhaps an ancient red dragon with an affiliation to Asmodeus scripted the fall of Cehliax and the rise of House Thrune, with an eye on eventually ruling the empire itself.
In fact that Ancient Red may have a rivalry with an Ancient Silver who has propped up Taldor during its decay. Taldor should have long ago dissolved except for the manipulation of that Silver.
Also both are pure bloods seeking domination of others of their kind, and the mixed bloods. The mixed blood dragons alone are worth an entire book!
Things are getting civil again... good!
I still plan on buying the book, no matter what.
But yeah the stuff he suggested are great additions. Things I hope to find, are how do the dragons interact with the lesser races and each other. What would a "typical" lair look like. And while stat blocks can be the exact same, it doesn't mean the personalities must be the same. Based upon the dragon creation myth, I expect Golarion dragons to behave VERY differently than those of other games.
I am tired of dragons that are little more than beasts and monsters. I want dragons that are masterminds behind civilization. For example, perhaps an ancient red dragon with an affiliation to Asmodeus scripted the fall of Cehliax and the rise of House Thrune, with an eye on eventually ruling the empire itself.
In fact that Ancient Red may have a rivalry with an Ancient Silver who has propped up Taldor during its decay. Taldor should have long ago dissolved except for the manipulation of that Silver.
Also both are pure bloods seeking domination of others of their kind, and the mixed bloods. The mixed blood dragons alone are worth an entire book!
I think you'll be pleased, Krome :) Each dragon opens with a quote from the Drakanav Codex, followed by some overview/general statements about that particular kind of dragon. Then there is a section on each of the following: Ecology and Society, Hoard and Home, Campaign Role, On Golarion, Names, and then a specific dragon and it's stat block :)
There is also several pictures on each dragon, and a great beginning section with the mythology of how dragons started, and how/why they came to Golarion.
lolI think that sort of stuff would be a good addition to this type of book.WOOHOOO!!!!!
I'm packin mah bags for Paizo-land now!!!!!
i'M FEELIN all Sally Fields..."You like me!!! You really REALLY like ME!!!"
Over twelve hours later and I still feel all Sally Fields...umm...help?
Isn't this like Viagra where I should seek out a Dr if the effects last longer than four hours?
Over twelve hours later and I still feel all Sally Fields...umm...help?
Isn't this like Viagra where I should seek out a Dr if the effects last longer than four hours?
That's the Paizo Effect you're experiencing. It comes from "The Man" (in this case: Paizo) listening to your gripes, preferences, and comments and giving them serious consideration and making you aware that they're paying attenction. While other companies do care what their customers feel, few respond letting you know that your comments didn't fall on deaf ears and fewer still actually implement those ideas as rapidly as Paizo.
This effect usually progresses with becoming a subscriber (you'll note, I subscribe to 2 lines). One recommendation: licking the pages helps you get the best crack.