Given how Chelaxians (IMHO at least) lack the drive for exterminating the local races of the territories they conquer to near-extinction, wouldn't there be a healthy amount of Shoanti/Chelaxian cross-breeding? Would you have any name of choice for these golarian "mestizos"? Furthermore, how would Shoanti view these people?
In Varisia, the Storval Plateau marks a pretty clear boarder between Shoanti territories and the lands of Southerners. As the Shoanti are a race of proud warriors unified by tribal laws, ancient traditions, and a reaction to most foreigners that ranges from intense suspicion to hatred, I'd say the number of half-Shoati half-Chelaxians is pretty rare. I think the barbarians would treat these unfortunates in much the same way they do half-orcs spawned from those kidnapped from their tribes, which is to say with dismissive pity.
They might not hunt each other to extinction, but they still hate their guts and despise each other for being uncivilised savages/weak and arrogant city dwellers.
Chelaxian/Shoanti couples are definetly exceptions.
Chelaxian/Shoanti couples are definetly exceptions.
I was thinking more of the bastard children born of the whole burn/rape/pillage thing (not in that order, mind you) that happens in most expansionist campaigns. Furthermore, mass-impregnation of women in order to force them to bear children from their "conquerors" has been a custom used by more than one real-world army throughout history to break the target people's morale.
Still, I know such may or may not work in a world with access to divine magic where interruption of pregnancy can be considerable less risky. Likewise, it would be quite understandable that Paizo prefered to leave such grim elements of war out of the game.
I was thinking more of the bastard children born of the whole burn/rape/pillage thing (not in that order, mind you) that happens in most expansionist campaigns.
I don't know. The Chelaxians of that time don't have the b/r/p vibe in my opinion.
Furthermore, mass-impregnation of women in order to force them to bear children from their "conquerors" has been a custom used by more than one real-world army throughout history to break the target people's morale.
That one's new to me.
And that one's another thing I can't quite picture them doing.
Likewise, it would be quite understandable that Paizo prefered to leave such grim elements of war out of the game.
I don't think so. There are half-orcs, after all, and unlike certain other wussy companies, Paizo doesn't have a problem with saying that most half-orcs are the result of atrocities.
So if they think that Cheliax thought if they cannot wipe the Shoanit off the face of Golarion, they'll breed them off the planet, they will say so.
But the Cheliax of that time doesn't seem quite like that. Sure, there certainly were atrocities, as in every war, but I'd guess that it wasn't condoned by their leaders, and neither did they have official programmes.
I don't know. The Chelaxians of that time don't have the b/r/p vibe in my opinion.
Yeah, while I'm sure it happened to a degree, in a world where ethical boundaries are far more cut and dry, I'm going to say such interactions were the exception. My time line might be wrong on this, but I believe the Chelaxians were devoted to Aroden at the time, so I expect their military operated with a degree of propriety. On top of this, there's no such thing as a delicate flower Shoanti woman. Just as much as their male counterparts, Shoanti women are warriors, not prizes to be captured. Lets just say that anyone who tries the b/r/p route is going to get what he deserves, and if somehow a pregnancy does occur, it would have to be under pretty extraordinary conditions to survive to be born. Also, even if a few half-bloods did manage to occur, most would the Shoanti blood would have likely been breed out in the centuries since the conquest. Modern half-Shoanti are more likely the willing result of current day barbarians and the rare outlanders adopted by the tribe.
On top of this, there's no such thing as a delicate flower Shoanti woman. Just as much as their male counterparts, Shoanti women are warriors, not prizes to be captured.
Damn straight!
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When populations live in proximity to each other, unless there is a major mitigating circumstance then there tends to be at least a small blending of the population.
That said, evidence today points to the peoples of france and britain not having much in the way of new genetic imput from other peoples despite having been conquered by various other peoples through out history.
As for Shoanti and Chelaxians cross breeding to create a kind of middle class... there doesn't seem to be a large number of Shoanti living amongsth the Chelaxians of the southlands. I could see exceptions, but I don't think a definitive class could arise in those circumstances.
My time line might be wrong on this, but I believe the Chelaxians were devoted to Aroden at the time
Nah, I think that's right. Taldor/Cheliax followed him for a long time, and he only died 100 years ago - 200 or so years after Korvosa was founded.
there's no such thing as a delicate flower Shoanti woman.
I don't know. Look at the picture from PF #10, the Shoanti article ("People of the Storval Plateau"). She's quite the cutie, and has that "hey there, wanna have a good time" expression on her face.
Of course, she's just killing some poor soldier, but I'm not looking for a long-term relationship, anyway!
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Most of the Korvosans, like most "Chelaxians" in Varisia, have mixed blood, combining Chelish genes with those of the local people (that is Varisians AND Shoanti). Those with the purest Chelaxian blood are aristocracy (much like the descendents of Spanish people were in Central and South America).
Of course, having this common blood does not make the "Chelaxians" more palatable to the Shoanti, nor vice versa. Quite the opposite in fact.
BTW : the Shoanti are hardly a homogeneous ethnicity, since they are descended from the many different people who served as the warrior class of Old Thassilon
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What about Shoanti being the instigators of b/r/p? They certainly seem more like the type.
Honestly, I can't see them doing that. Of course there are going to be evil Shoanti that would go in for that, just as there bad eggs in all Golarion's cultures, but in general the Shoanti seem too honorable to ever have a b/r/p M.O. Their gender equality alone speaks volumes about how much the /r/ wouldn't be expected from them, unlike their orcish enemies from Belkzen.
Though some of them, when they're pissed enough, certainly would engage in some b/. Then again, the Chelaxians did kind of take their land from them by force...
You know, at first glance, I thought the thread title may have been asking about stud fees.
The guys over in the Velashu Lowlands seem like the people to go to for that.
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Funny this thread came up!
A friend of mine is going to DM us through Second Darkness starting Tuesday, and I just created a Korvosan-born fighter, and had to go through his genealogy (Korvosan "traditionalist", i.e. of mixed Chelish and Varisan blood, but his mother was Shaonti, so he's 50% traditionalist and 50% Shoanti)
I love Golarion! :)
there bad eggs in all Golarion's cultures
Nah, not us. In Cheliax, bad eggs become blood sacrifices. Deadbeat Disposal - Another public service provided by the Glorious Church of Asmodeus.
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I'm confused. When discussion of Belor Hemlock's skin color came up, way back before RotRL was released, one of the contributors (James...I think) said that the Shoanti were genetically diverse. They were cultural traditionalists, but they ran from dark skin, dark eyes to pale skin and light eyes. This suggests easy sexual relations with their non-Shoanti neighbors.
On top of this, there's no such thing as a delicate flower Shoanti woman. Just as much as their male counterparts, Shoanti women are warriors, not prizes to be captured.Damn straight!
<AIMS>
Wow, a post from a feminist. Shame this kind of society just really wouldn't work in reality. If the men are warriors, and the women are warriors...who takes care of the children? Who does the majority of the cleaning and cooking?
<FIRE>
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Wow, a post from a feminist. Shame this kind of society just really wouldn't work in reality. If the men are warriors, and the women are warriors...who takes care of the children? Who does the majority of the cleaning and cooking?On top of this, there's no such thing as a delicate flower Shoanti woman. Just as much as their male counterparts, Shoanti women are warriors, not prizes to be captured.Damn straight!
The children are warriors too! Cooking is for the old and weak!
lol
Wow, a post from a feminist. Shame this kind of society just really wouldn't work in reality. If the men are warriors, and the women are warriors...who takes care of the children? Who does the majority of the cleaning and cooking?On top of this, there's no such thing as a delicate flower Shoanti woman. Just as much as their male counterparts, Shoanti women are warriors, not prizes to be captured.Damn straight!The children are warriors too! Cooking is for the old and weak!
lol
Even in the matriarchal tribes of the Amazon...the men were the ones cooking/cleaning/child raising.... (I believe, although I am no anthropologist)
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On top of this, there's no such thing as a delicate flower Shoanti woman. Just as much as their male counterparts, Shoanti women are warriors, not prizes to be captured.Damn straight!<AIMS>
Wow, a post from a feminist. Shame this kind of society just really wouldn't work in reality. If the men are warriors, and the women are warriors...who takes care of the children? Who does the majority of the cleaning and cooking?
<FIRE>
Probably a combination of women and the elderly. And there's nothing that prevents the women from being warriors and housewives. They don't need to go on military campaigns to be capable with a sword. There's probably a structure in place to make sure every member of the tribe is trained to fight, regardless of their day-to-day roles.
Barring that, the entire tribe eats Goodberries. No fuss, no muss. More time for fighting.
On top of this, there's no such thing as a delicate flower Shoanti woman. Just as much as their male counterparts, Shoanti women are warriors, not prizes to be captured.Damn straight!<AIMS>
Wow, a post from a feminist. Shame this kind of society just really wouldn't work in reality. If the men are warriors, and the women are warriors...who takes care of the children? Who does the majority of the cleaning and cooking?
<FIRE>
Uh...okay....not sure where that came from.
And who says that warriors aren't capable of caring for their children, cleaning, or cooking? On the Storval Plateau, everyone needs to be able to defend themselves. And then there's their warrior caste hritage too.
Why is this is a problem?
And there's nothing that prevents the women from being warriors and housewives.
Nor there's anything that prevents men from doing housekeeping either.
...I'm watching you Selk, me and my pointy cooking implements...
Perhaps they're led by warpriests who use their Hero's Feast every day...
Most of the time we just hunt the closest auroch.
The great thing about living on the Cinderlands is that half the meat is cooked for you already!
Is the verbal component for that spell "Hey, Kool-Aid"? Nevermind, that's passwall.
Oh yeah!
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interesting
then indeed half-shoanti would be uncommon and pittied, or shunned
(this would help ina a few tings :D)
I see shoanti as american indiands, both phisically and culturaly, and every tribe was different, both different qualities, features, characteristics and values... still they had a common central basis
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Quick note: While the Shoanti were originally described as being unified more by their culture than their genes, it's also mentioned in the Campaign Setting that they're well on their way to becoming Golarion's newest ethnicity, which would mean they would become a people distinct by blood and culture.
The CS is also much more optimistic about their eventual fate than some of the fluff in the Korvosa Guide, though much of that talk about them being a "doomed" people was coming from a known jerkass.
I don't see Shoanti/Chelaxian pairings being that rare. Uncommon maybe, but not exceedingly rare. But then it also likely depends on where you are. The frequency certainly varies between places like Sandpoint and Korvosa, and from Shoanti clan to clan.
After all, it's known that most Chelaxians in Varisia aren't full-blooded Chelaxians any more.
Hot damn I love Golarion's cultural/ethnicity stuff.
Nor there's anything that prevents men from doing housekeeping either.
Testosterone. Recently been found out.