I’m trying to think ahead for my party and wondered what others of you have done once the alarm has been raised in Thistletop?
Its seems to me there is little the party can do if they enter the chapel to stop the alarm being raised. The text says the hounds bay as the charge in and this raises the alarm. So what happens next?
My thoughts:
1. Orik and Bruthazmus grab their weapons and armour and go to Lyrie to set-up a defense there (Tsuto’s is under arrest in Sandpoint in my adventure).
- However Orik and Bruthazmus must both go past the chapel and so would engage there if they get the opportunity.
- If O&B don’t make it to Lyrie she nervously waits a few minutes and then barricades the door and reteats to Naulia.
2. The goblins run around a lot upstairs and eventually Ripnugget organises them in to investigating downstairs but this will take a few turns.
3. Nualia probably won’t hear the hounds and so won’t know unless someone warns her.
I would be interested in other suggestions or what people did and what worked and didn’t.
I’m trying to think ahead for my party and wondered what others of you have done once the alarm has been raised in Thistletop?
** spoiler omitted **
I would be interested in other suggestions or what people did and what worked and didn’t.
My party raised the alarm even before getting to the upper fort. So this is what happened...
The goblins organized a defense in the "throne room". So the PCs got attacked by ALL the goblins once they arrived there. A difficult battle, but if the PCs are at least 2nd level, they should survive if they play it smartly.
Since the goblins were incapable of handling the intruders, Nualia then decides to ambush them in the temple once they get there.
For my players, this encounter included all the NPCs plus the hounds. This was nearly a TPK because they weren't expecting it. They had to retreat the first time, during which Nualia regroups and possibly sends out a goblin scouting party to investigate who these intruders are.
Once the PCs regrouped, they went back in and had a REALLY difficult battle with more than one PC going into negatives then getting revived by the cleric. In the end, they kicked butt and took Nualia down in the temple. Very dramatic.
For my part, this is what I've come up with...
The pickle thief goblins are ready to toss javelins down on anyone at the doors. Once they're out of javelins, they'll run down to the trophy room to join the goblins there (the group from the barracks). On the other tower, the goblin commandos are set to shoot their bows at anyone crossing the bridge and at the doors. Once they're out of arrows, or the doors are open, they'll move down to join the fight in the trophy room. The last element is that one of the goblins in the trophy room will be ready to open the door to the exercise yard, letting in the goblin dogs there.
Ripnugget and his people will be set up in the throne room, as described in the module. Meanwhile, in the dungeon below, the henchmen are together and ready, while Nualia continues to try and figure out how to free the barghest.
Basically, this should let me divide the struggle for the stockade into 3 fights - at the door, in the trophy room, in the throne room. If the party pulls back before the throne room and gives Nualia a day or so, she'll call in goblins from one of the other local tribes to refill the defenses.
Things went a little differently for my party...
First, they were thoroughly baffled and mystified by the barrier of thorns. So they rowed up the coast to the beach just south of Thistletop, scaled the cliffs, and threaded their way along the edge until arriving at the bridge to the island of Thistletop itself.
Of course, about half way around they got spotted through the brambles by the Birdcruncher refugees in the C4. Refugee Nest. They shot and poked at the party as they went by the C8. Watchposts. And just short of the rope bridge came under attack by Gogmurt, Tangletooth, several goblin dogs, and goblin archers at the bridge head. The party smacked the goblins pretty hard, killed most of the goblin dogs, and drove off Gogmurt and his firepelt.
The party then charged across the rope bridge and assaulted the now closed palisade gate directly. The party's cleric triggered the trap on the bridge and fell into the sea (and spent the rest of the combat trying NOT to drown). The party handily smashed open the gate and met the full brunt of Ripnugget's assembled forces.
Rignugget's forces consisted pretty much of all the goblins available on the main floor of the complex.
Through judicious use of spells and shear tenacity the party was able to inflict some serious devastation upon the goblins. Most of the goblins ended up being slept. Ripnugget on Stickfoot was forced to retreat and the warchanter and goblin commandos were killed.
Bruthazmus and Orvik showed up...but were driven back by the party's spells.
Eventually, exhausted, the party retreated back across the bridge and then back to their camp on the beach.
The entire session was pretty much spent in combat.
I found out the goblins just aren't much of a challenge for a determined party of 3rd level characters.
My players aren't finding Burnt Offerings much of a challenge.
CJ
Things went a little differently for my party...
** spoiler omitted **
My players aren't finding Burnt Offerings much of a challenge.
CJ
I would agree that characters at 3rd level, esp Pathfinder RPG Beta characters, could easily handle everything you mentioned.
However, I was wondering how they were level 3 already. Are you guys using Pathfinder RPG Beta rules or 3.5 rules?
I would agree that characters at 3rd level, esp Pathfinder RPG Beta characters, could easily handle everything you mentioned.However, I was wondering how they were level 3 already. Are you guys using Pathfinder RPG Beta rules or 3.5 rules?
Pathfinder Beta rules. We were using the Fast Advancement track and they made 4th following the assault. We have also done at least one side-track adventure.
We are now using the Medium Advancement track.
The fight against Nualia was equally disappointing in terms of challenge.
CJ
I would agree that characters at 3rd level, esp Pathfinder RPG Beta characters, could easily handle everything you mentioned.However, I was wondering how they were level 3 already. Are you guys using Pathfinder RPG Beta rules or 3.5 rules?
Pathfinder Beta rules. We were using the Fast Advancement track and they made 4th following the assault. We have also done at least one side-track adventure.
We are now using the Medium Advancement track.
The fight against Nualia was equally disappointing in terms of challenge.
CJ
I think Nualia is a challenge for Pathfinder Beta players ONLY if the party is Level 2/3 and even then, only if she has henchmen with her.
Also, if you guys are running the fast advancement, that really only works if you're not using published adventures since they will assume the medium advancement. Since you guys are already a level ahead of where they expect you to be, I'm not surprised it's not very challenging.
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How many players do you have? I'm using Pathfinder Beta as well, fast track, but they're only a little ways into level 2 and are almost done with the Catacombs. I'm pretty sure there's no way they can reach 3 before Thistletop.
Here's a rundown of all the possible experience, to my knowledge.
Initial Goblin Battles
Goblins - CR 1/3 x11
Warchanter - CR 1
Commando - CR 1
Goblin Dog - CR 1
Local Heroes
Max Shayliss Reward - CR 2
Goblin in the Closet - CR 1
Glassworks
Goblins - CR 1/3 x8
Tsuto - CR 3
Catacombs of Wrath
Sinspawn - CR 2 x4
Vargouille - CR 2
Koruvus - CR 3
Zombie Mercy Kills - CR 1
Erylium - CR 4
Overall
CR 1/3 x19 = 2,565
CR 1 x5 = 2,000
CR 2 x6 = 3,600
CR 3 x2 = 1,600
CR 4 x1 = 1,200
Total = 10,965
Party of Four = 2,741 each
XP Needed for level 3 on Fast Track = 3,300
I imagine you had some extra encounters or something to boost them before the dungeon? As it stands, I don't think it's intended to be level 3 before you hit Thistletop, the early part should be done at level 2. Especially since that 500 xp from Shayliss is pretty impossible to get. :)
EDIT: doh, just saw that you did one side-trek adventure. That must have been the boost.
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I would agree that characters at 3rd level, esp Pathfinder RPG Beta characters, could easily handle everything you mentioned.However, I was wondering how they were level 3 already. Are you guys using Pathfinder RPG Beta rules or 3.5 rules?
Pathfinder Beta rules. We were using the Fast Advancement track and they made 4th following the assault. We have also done at least one side-track adventure.
We are now using the Medium Advancement track.
The fight against Nualia was equally disappointing in terms of challenge.
CJ
I think Nualia is a challenge for Pathfinder Beta players ONLY if the party is Level 2/3 and even then, only if she has henchmen with her.
Also, if you guys are running the fast advancement, that really only works if you're not using published adventures since they will assume the medium advancement. Since you guys are already a level ahead of where they expect you to be, I'm not surprised it's not very challenging.
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I've been using the Fast track for all of CotCT (in Scarwall now) and so far it most closely matches the 3.5 experience track, and is keeping the party about in line with the expected levels. I think James or someone even mentioned somewhere that Fast works well for the currently published APs.
Yeah i was under the impression that the current APs used the fast exp chart
Yeah i was under the impression that the current APs used the fast exp chart
Really? If that's the case then I'm very surprised. Maybe my PCs are too buff?
I'm using medium as well, and the PCs are getting close to 3rd going into the Thistletop Stockade (I expect they'll level to 3rd before heading into the lower level). If I was using fast, they'd be 3rd already and, I suspect, be finding this last bit too easy.
It is mentioned in the Beta rules, p299, that existing adventures assume a fast xp path. I'll have to see if I still agree with that as they go into Skinsaw. I'm finding the Pathfinder characters to be somewhat more survivable at the lower levels.
Also, I'm running the adventure pretty much straight from the book (the most conversion I've done is to convert Listen/Spot into Perception and to use the pathfinder version of feats and spells). It's working pretty well, so far.
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The APs work well with the fast experience track. CotCT has my group of 5 players entering Scarwall at level 11. This seems fair even though it's a level below the expected start point, since there are 5 of them. If they were on a Medium track then they wouldn't even be 11th level yet, they'd be 10th. In Scarwall.
GAH.
Considering RotRL, let's add on the encounters from the rest of the adventure.
Outside Thistletop
Goblin Refugees - CR 1/3 x10
Goblin Dogs - CR 1 x4
Gogmurt and Tangletooth - CR 4
Rope Bridge Trap - CR 2
Upper Thistletop
Goblins - CR 1/3 x12
Commandos - CR 1 x5
Warchanter - CR 1
Goblin Dogs - CR 1 x8
Shadowmist Rescue - CR 2
Ripnugget - CR 4
Stickfoot - CR 1
Slasher Trap - CR 3
Bunyip - CR 3
Thistletop Dungeon Level One
Goblins - CR 1/3 x4
Bruthazmus - CR 3
Orik - CR 3
Tentamort - CR 4
Yeth Hounds - CR 3 x2
Lyrie - CR 3
Thistletop Dungeon Level Two
Slashing Cage Trap - CR 3
Nualia - CR 5
Yeth Hounds - CR 3
Shadows - CR 3 x3
Giant Hermit Crab - CR 5
Malfeshnekor - CR 7
Overall
CR 1/3 x26 = 3,510
CR 1 x19 = 7,600
CR 2 x2 = 1,200
CR 3 x12 = 9,600
CR 4 x3 = 3,600
CR 5 x2 = 3,200
CR 7 = 3,200
Total = 31,910
Total plus pre-Thistletop encounters = 42,875
Per Player with Four =~ 10,719
Level at Fast Track = 5th
Level at Medium Track = 4th
In the case of both tracks, the XP needed for those levels made it over by 719 for Fast Track, and 1,719 for Medium. This is including EVERY possible reward for the adventure.
Skinsaw assumes 4th level character starts for the adventure. So it would seem that Medium is the right choice, but this scales down later on, and I doubt the players will even reach 14th level by the end of the AP. CotCT experienced the same problem. Early on, the party was leveling a bit quicker than expected, and was even overshadowing the level line a bit around 5th and 6th level. By 10th and 11th though, they've gone back down to the expected level, and if they were using Medium would be vastly unprepared for Scarwall.
Also, the party only reaches 5th in Thistletop if they do EVERYTHING possible, which isn't always going to happen.
I think the Fast Advancement track would have worked if I wasn't doing some side adventures and such.
I am playing Crimson Throne using the Pathfinder Beta and Fast Track and we are progressing pretty close to where we should probably be in terms of challenge. We often have a bit more of a challenge as our party isn't exactly optimized for combat -- but that is a different story.
I really like the Runelords AP, and I think it works really well to wrap my own stories within. My players are enjoying the main plot, but they also like the plots and stories I come up with. Sometimes these are seamless integrated, sometimes they aren't.
Here is what happened when they met Nualia...
But I really should have beefed up Nualia a bit more. They drew her and her henches into battle in the hallway between D11 and D1. Even with the addition of some Mosswood goblins (I re-used Ripnugget and his trophy-room crew) that attempted to flank the party from D9. It really wasn't much of a challenge. As GM I had some bad rolls which nullified the henchies (critical spell failure using the Critical Fumbles Deck caused a stinking cloud to engulf the henchmen), and led to Nualia failing her save versus the party sorceress's hideous laughter.
I am running this party again next weekend and I really hope they go after Malfeshkenor -- I think he will still be a challenge RAW. If nothing else the party might figure out that there are dangerous critters out there. Right now they are feeling pretty unstoppable. I don't want to get into a GM vs. PC's thing...but I would like to show them that there are some nasties around they can't just blow-through.
CJ
Also, I'm running the adventure pretty much straight from the book (the most conversion I've done is to convert Listen/Spot into Perception and to use the pathfinder version of feats and spells). It's working pretty well, so far.
Same here. With same results.
a list of XP values for monsters
I also give out story awards as well as roleplaying awards. The monster XP would not be enough and I've always thought it was lame to gain XP just for monsters.
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a list of XP values for monstersI also give out story awards as well as roleplaying awards. The monster XP would not be enough and I've always thought it was lame to gain XP just for monsters.
If you give out sufficient Story rewards, then yes, Medium track may end up being better. I try to go with what the AP offers, personally, to test out the XP system in the Beta. Pathfinder offers 'quest rewards' on occasion anyhow, so they aren't completely deprived of the story rewards (even in the above, there were rewards for dealing with Shayliss, rescuing the horse, and I think I even missed the reward for depleting the Runewell of all its points).
Skinsaw assumes 4th level character starts for the adventure. So it would seem that Medium is the right choice, but this scales down later on, and I doubt the players will even reach 14th level by the end of the AP. CotCT experienced the same problem. Early on, the party was leveling a bit quicker than expected, and was even overshadowing the level line a bit around 5th and 6th level. By 10th and 11th though, they've gone back down to the expected level, and if they were using Medium would be vastly unprepared for Scarwall.Also, the party only reaches 5th in Thistletop if they do EVERYTHING possible, which isn't always going to happen.
Point taken Karui.
I think that if I stay in the Medium track I should still be able to make the expected party levels for the later chapters as I will still be doing side-treks and out-of-the-box stuff. Hopefully I won't come whining back here complaining how it all went horribly array.
Question for Karui Kage
CJ
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Spoilerific Response!
I don't know a Tim, unfortunately. The list of players I've had in my games are as follows (excluding full last names):
Age of Worms - Ended - Jourdan H., Lauren S., David, Josh P., Michael C., Kathy, Nick, Breanna
Curse of the Crimson Throne - Saturdays, in Scarwall - Lauren S., David, Josh P., Michael C., Brad M.
Rise of the Runelords - Fridays, in Catacombs of Wrath - Neil O., Sara R., Owen, Jeff S.
Society Participants - On Campaign days when player(s) are missing - Mike C., Owen, David, Josh P., Sara R., Jeff S., Neil O., Robert B.
So many people.
I'm usually up for a beer. You sure it was my CotCT game he mentioned? I've had the same five people throughout the whole campaign. :)
Spoilerific Response!
** spoiler omitted **
So many people.
I'm usually up for a beer. You sure it was my CotCT game he mentioned? I've had the same five people throughout the whole campaign. :)
I could be totally wrong. It has happened before.
CJ
I'm using medium as well, and the PCs are getting close to 3rd going into the Thistletop Stockade (I expect they'll level to 3rd before heading into the lower level). If I was using fast, they'd be 3rd already and, I suspect, be finding this last bit too easy.
It is mentioned in the Beta rules, p299, that existing adventures assume a fast xp path. I'll have to see if I still agree with that as they go into Skinsaw. I'm finding the Pathfinder characters to be somewhat more survivable at the lower levels.
Also, I'm running the adventure pretty much straight from the book (the most conversion I've done is to convert Listen/Spot into Perception and to use the pathfinder version of feats and spells). It's working pretty well, so far.
I am using Joey Virtue's adjustments for 6 PC's and the fast track. My group leveled to 3rd after Gogmort and the goblins in the thistletop briars. They had a big throw down with the alarm raised at the gates of the stockade, handled it with little problem. All the handy goblins and dogs came out to play and were dispatched. 3 reg goblins and a dog by a silly snowball spell. They are all long time players and worked well here together. I beefed up Ripnuggets encounter with a few goblins who ran from the trophy room adding the total number of commando's to 7. If Ripnugget hadn't been held, for three rounds, I could have really hurt them. I dropped two to negs. It is funny how one encounter 50 ft away was easy, and the next could have been a disaster.
Should I take it off the fast track you think? I am not a good number cruncher so I take advice rather seriously.
Should I take it off the fast track you think? I am not a good number cruncher so I take advice rather seriously.
I think James said somewhere that the Adventure paths assume fast advancement for PFRPG