What would you guys say is the best base class/PrC combination for a party which has all the basic roles (martial, skills, arcane, divine) covered? Other than bard, of course. :-) I'm open to any material published by WotC or Paizo.
At low levels -- another martial class.
At high levels -- another arcane caster.
All around -- probably a cleric. Having one dedicated "caster" cleric and one "melee" cleric is pretty nifty.
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Noble and Marshall tend to fit into the "Bard" niche, but if you want a buff-inducing character who doesn't cast or sing, they're a good bet.
I always find that aside from all kinds of "Jack of all Trades" a really decent, solid add is the "Fish Out of Water".
This could be almost anything but should be something alien to the campaign's local and regional politics/professions.
A Samurai in a European Setting, a Swordsage or Crusader from Tome of Battle.
A Psionic character as an Indian Yogi, or Oriental Mystic.
A Totemist (Magic of the Incarnum) as a Native American styled Shaman.
Something that doesn't -fit- into an existing niche.
Or if you want to get _REALLY_ interesting, look outside of WotC and Paizo. We imported a Gunmage from Iron Kingdoms' material into the Renaissance level Domains of a Ravenloft Campaign. (Flintlocks and Wheellocks, not modern firearms).
Perhaps a Cthulhian Investigator? Depends on your campaign. Feel free to get creative and use Heroes of Horror for inspiration!
I was considering Factotum from Dungeonscape, but it seems like the class doesn't get nearly enough inspiration points to remain effective throughout the course of even one encounter, much less one day of adventuring. Anyone know if there's anymore Factotum material out there, like new feats and such?
I was considering Factotum from Dungeonscape, but it seems like the class doesn't get nearly enough inspiration points to remain effective throughout the course of even one encounter, much less one day of adventuring. Anyone know if there's anymore Factotum material out there, like new feats and such?
On the Wizards of the Coast web site, they posted a feat that gives you a bonus inspiration point the first time you take it, two bonus inspiration points the second time you take it, three bonus inspiration points the third time you take it, etc.
See here for details: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606
Honestly the more clerics the better. I someone knows how to play them they are extremely powerful.
Otherwise I think Druid or Ranger is a very good choice. That way they can do the nature stuff. It can be very handy depending on the campaign.
Also depending on the skills person, a good face might be very, very helpful. A face is the type of character designed to deal with NPCs. Lots of charisma with Diplomacy, Gather Info, multiple languages and similar skills is good to have.
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My choices:
Shadow Caster or Binder wouldn't be bad. (Tome of Magic)
Dragon Fire Adept would be cool too. (Dragon Magic)
Try the Psychic from Green Ronin's Advanced Players Handbook or the Psychics Handbook. (IMO though this class needs a few extra 'skill points' just for use with the psychic skills...)
My choices:
Shadow Caster or Binder wouldn't be bad. (Tome of Magic)
Dragon Fire Adept would be cool too. (Dragon Magic)
Try the Psychic from Green Ronin's Advanced Players Handbook or the Psychics Handbook. (IMO though this class needs a few extra 'skill points' just for use with the psychic skills...)
I don't know about the Green Ronin stuff, but the 3.5 psionics are so rediculously over powered I banned the book outright.
Needs more Cleric.
In order:
Cleric (I got a fever, and the only prescription is more remove disease)
Ranger
Paladin
Monk
First of all, I don't think the 5th should be a Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, Sorcerer, or Rogue, because then you start stepping on the toes of your party members. Sure, it would allow for tactical double coverage. But if you look at it from an RP perspective, it feels like you'd be stealing the spotlight from somebody.
Initially I was thinking Factotum, then someone mentioned Binder. That got me to thinking: Wouldn't it be interesting to make a prestige class that allows you to progress effective Binder level and increases inspiration points? You would be the ultimate "oh shit" button. :-D
First of all, I don't think the 5th should be a Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, Sorcerer, or Rogue, because then you start stepping on the toes of your party members.
Most people who play clerics would be happy for people to step on their "healing monkey" toes.
"Please, do some of the healing so I can actually use my magic for something else."
A binder would be good because it can fill any role depending on the selected vestige(s). But they don't do QUITE as good as the primary in that role.
A druid can be really versatile too. I played an elven druid that was an archer/summoner/blaster/healer/face/scout/locksmith/counter speller/transporter/battle field controller/tank/tracker/buffer.
The dragon shaman isn't bad either. It can tank/heal/blast/buff and fill other rolls depending on what kind of dragon totem you choose (stealth, scout, face, etc.)
Monks are real useful against casters, especially expert grapplers. They're also great at flanking and moving into and out of combat. They also excell at standing in one place and flurrying like crazy.
A warlock can be a good ranged striker with a bunch of useful "trump cards." (invocations) Especially when combined with lots of ranks in Use Magic Device and Deceive Item. I usually put my highest score in Constitution so my warlocks can also tank if need be.
Cleric (I got a fever, and the only prescription is more remove disease)Sorry, all I have is this cowbell, will that do?
Does that make Christopher Walken a bard?????
For a purely support PC, I would consider an Archivist from Heroes of Horror.
Race Human, start with a level of Dragonfire Adept, with the invocation Draconic Knowledge (+6 to knowledge checks). For feats take Draconic Heritage and Draconic Knowledge (a different thing than the invocation, gives +2 to knowledge checks). Max the knowledge skills.
For second level and beyond go straight Archivist. With maxed ranks and the bonuses from the Draconic knowledge feat and the draconic knowledge invocation and an INT modifier of +3, you would have a +16 to your knowledge checks, guaranteeing the +1 Dark Knowledge, and having a good shot at the +2 tier and a possible shot at the +3 tier.
With divine spellcasting (cleric, druid, paladin and ranger), the Archivist can boost, buff and heal the party with numerous spells, providing a really high level of support. But not a lot else.
At higher levels take the feat that grants dark knowledge to dragons/ constructs and the one that does fey/giants.
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Well, we have 2 monks, 1 rogue, 1 beguiler (myself), 1 warlock, 1 paladin, 2 clerics (one's having back surgery, so he's going to be out of the sessions for a little while), and 1 warmage about to join in on our shenanigans.
So far, both the rogue and the warlock have good social skills, but a little magical persuasion goes a long way. The monks and the paladin have melee all handled, with me (and I assume the warmage will help share my burden here) being battlefield control. RP wise, no one's stepping on each other's toes, as we can always use a couple charismatic characters at the same time. It's always good to have front-liners, and the healing is appreciated all around. We generally go by a "be what you want to be, we'll work it out later" rule in our group.
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We generally go by a "be what you want to be, we'll work it out later" rule in our group.
My group is kinda like that, but we also try to cover the various roles so that the group doesn't have a big glaring weakness.
That reminds me of the time we didn't cover our bases: We had built our party, but didn't really communicate about what we could do; and then we found out that the Rogue of the group decided to not drop any skill points into Search or Open Lock. When we were being chased as we tried to break out of a fortress.
"What do you mean you can't open it?"
"I mean I don't know how to pick locks!"
"Why didn't you tell us this?"
"Nobody asked! You all just assumed I could!"
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With the Cleric, Fighter, Sorcerer/Wizard and Rogue considered the 'core four,' I'd consider the Druid the 'ideal fifth.'
Backup healing in case the Cleric drops or is busy at the other end of the battlefield, more than competent melee ability between Wild Shape and Animal Companion, and a not-horrible backup arcane controller type using spells like Entangle or Wall of Thorns.
First of all, I don't think the 5th should be a Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, Sorcerer, or Rogue, because then you start stepping on the toes of your party members.Most people who play clerics would be happy for people to step on their "healing monkey" toes.
"Please, do some of the healing so I can actually use my magic for something else."
I've found that the best use of a cleric in a fighter is not healing. The captain almost never healed anyone during a fight, and he was real useful to have around.
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With the Cleric, Fighter, Sorcerer/Wizard and Rogue considered the 'core four,' I'd consider the Druid the 'ideal fifth.'
I would tend to agree with this statement; the druid joins the other two spell casters above as the 'power threesome' of the core classes.
But, in play, two of the best 5 party campaigns I run were composed of a Cleric, Fighter, Magic User, Thief (1st ed folks) and Paladin. [To this day the player who was playing the Magic User in one of those campaigns is the best player I've seen handle a high level spell caster, and that was some 20 years ago!]
My final caveat is, fully knowing the druid would most likely be the most optimum core class, if I were the fifth player I would join the party as a Bard [or a Ranger, or another Wizard, or ... in other words, whatever suited me at the time : ) ]
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In most cases, the person that makes the second cleric of the group does not choose the same Deity as the first. I like when they get into fake philosophical discussions, or when they come across a person that is thinking about changing religions and they fight over this potential follower. But alas, not every group RPs that heavily.
On that same note, I can see the druid and the cleric either being good friends, or always getting annoyed with each other.
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I like when they get into fake philosophical discussions, or when they come across a person that is thinking about changing religions and they fight over this potential follower.
Way back when 'Keep of the Borderlands' was one of the few modules out there, a Cleric and Paladin who were brothers (played by real life brothers) in the service of Ukko, Skyfather of the Finnish pantheon, converted a LE hobgoblin shaman they had taken prisoner into a first level LN Cleric of Ukko (one alignment step being as far as he would go).
I remember that one of the hardest things for the hobgoblin to grasp was NOT taking coin donations from the poor box at the door of the church. After a few months of gameplay the fledging Cleric set it upon himslef to convert the whole of Humanoidom.
Ahh GOOD times !
First of all, I don't think the 5th should be a Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, Sorcerer, or Rogue, because then you start stepping on the toes of your party members.
If this were all about the role play then we would not need all the 'basic roles'. As others said, it would be about playing what you wanted.
Druid: melee support, artillery and a touch of healing with a dash of scouting after wild shape.
I'd go for a second Cleric or Wizard.
2 Clerics in a party means that both Clerics can spend more of their spells on buffing and in combat, rather than on healing other party members.
2 Wizards, especially if they specialise in different schools, take different banned schools and have a different focus (i.e. blaster, buffer, battlefield control, etc.) work really well together.
In both cases you won't step on each others' toes, so long as the second Cleric or Wizard isn't just a replica of the first. This is especially true for the Wizards' spell selections. You want to be able to cover a wider range of options and situations, not just do the same thing as each other.
I've run a game that had 2 arcane casters in the party. I've also run a game that had 2 divine casters in the party (but not at the same time as the 2 arcane casters). On both occasions it worked really well. The 2 divine casters with their different attitudes towards religion was fun to watch play out too. :-)
Olaf the Stout
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In both cases you won't step on each others' toes, so long as the second Cleric or Wizard isn't just a replica of the first. This is especially true for the Wizards' spell selections. You want to be able to cover a wider range of options and situations, not just do the same thing as each other.
And then there can be parties that want nothing more than to play a 'Green Lantern Corps' game, where the entire party are Clerics, or the entire party are Druids. That can be quite fun.
Sure, there isn't necessarily a ton of difference between their actions, but when the four Dire Lions pounce while their masters fire up the Call Lightnings, it can be hella fun.
A donkey. It can carry loot, be used as monster-bait, set off traps, and even be eaten when supplies are low.
So a dwarf?
I don't know about the Green Ronin stuff, but the 3.5 psionics are so rediculously over powered I banned the book outright.None of the books I mentioned are psionics... so I am confused by your statement.
The difference between psychic and psionic is....?
A donkey. It can carry loot, be used as monster-bait, set off traps, and even be eaten when supplies are low.
Or a pony? ;-)
A donkey. It can carry loot, be used as monster-bait, set off traps, and even be eaten when supplies are low.
All of those can be done by a cleric, too.
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The difference between psychic and psionic is....?I don't know about the Green Ronin stuff, but the 3.5 psionics are so rediculously over powered I banned the book outright.None of the books I mentioned are psionics... so I am confused by your statement.
The Psychic is a class in a couple of Green Ronin books (either the Advanced Players Guide or The Psychic Handbook) that is hugely different than a Psion. No power points or powers, entirely feat and skill based.
Comparing the two would be like comparing the AU Warmain with the To9S Swordsage. Not even apples and oranges. More like apples and owlbears.
Eugh! I wouldn't eat a dwarf if you threatened to kill me!A donkey. It can carry loot, be used as monster-bait, set off traps, and even be eaten when supplies are low.So a dwarf?
Well they are a little gamey, but if you dust them off then peal back the skin the meat is very nice.
Well they are a little gamey, but if you dust them off then peal back the skin the meat is very nice.Eugh! I wouldn't eat a dwarf if you threatened to kill me!A donkey. It can carry loot, be used as monster-bait, set off traps, and even be eaten when supplies are low.So a dwarf?
And you can make a nice canoe with what's left!
The difference between psychic and psionic is....?I don't know about the Green Ronin stuff, but the 3.5 psionics are so rediculously over powered I banned the book outright.None of the books I mentioned are psionics... so I am confused by your statement.The Psychic is a class in a couple of Green Ronin books (either the Advanced Players Guide or The Psychic Handbook) that is hugely different than a Psion. No power points or powers, entirely feat and skill based.
Comparing the two would be like comparing the AU Warmain with the To9S Swordsage. Not even apples and oranges. More like apples and owlbears.
As I mentioned I've never read the green ronin books. In normal palance psychic and psionic refer to the same thing, so anyone who hadn't read the books wouldn't automatically know the difference. Hence my comments.