I recently ran an adventure about bugbears and got to thinking about just how many different humanoids there are and what an important role they play in D&D. Lots of times they're put in missions based on environment and challenge rating. If you have a mission about gnolls but want a swamp mission, switch them out for lizardfolk, etc. I'd like to know other people's takes on humanoids and humanoid giants (ogres and trolls) and which is your favorite.
I throw my support behind the hobgoblin. They're more than just smarter and oranger (yes those are related) orcs. They have a whole crazy caste based society. They could easily wipe out an entire kingdom if there were enough of them...
I think my favorite thing about humanoids is the crazy class combinations their leader's receive. Long live fighter/rouge/adepts!
There are not enough grippli action in RPGs... Those are humanoids right?
Those are all cool, especially ogre magi. I always thought gnolls were pretty awesome because in Races of Wild there was a feat that gave then a bite attack when they charged. I found this Kalamar monster manual book with bugbear mages.
Kenku remind me of the kif from C.J. Cherryh's "Chanur" series. So, AWESOME!!!
I've been using lots of gnolls, yuan-ti, and rakshasa in my Crater Sea campaign (mostly because an asteroid wiped out the orcs, goblins, trolls, ogres, etc. when it crashed into the earth and made a new ocean--the Crater Sea). I've also been using Shifters as weaker versions of yuan-ti and rakshasas. The kuo-toa and suhaguin haven't made as much of an impact as I would have liked.
Some of my favorites.
Orcs - brutes, got to love them
Dwarves - grumpy, angry, and all the rest
Lizardfolk - scaley and fun
Kobolds - "What do you mean he has 7 levels of warrior and is only a CR 4?" [True quote]
Bugbears - like orcs but not stupid, making them really scary
Gnolls - I really want to use them more but they are just so damn weak, but I still like them.
Varag (MM4 Hobgoblin/Dire Wolf hybrid) - all the fun of gnolls with goblinoids
Goblins - not "stupid" pathfinder ones, but sneaky, cut your throat in the dark, rob the store from the back while the orc gets caught breaking in the front type
For the larger races I like ogres and hill giants. I use them for just about any type of large slow witted generally humanoid type creature. Abominable snowmen? Ogre with cold subtype. Cyclops? Hill giant with one eye.
Humanoids are a huge sticking point for me: specifically, developing them in terms of actual culture. I hate the idea that "evil/savage" humanoids are all just neanderthals lurking about in caves waiting for adventurers to come chop them down. I could probably write 10-20 pages on the humanoid culture and history I've developed for my homebrew, and that's not counting the culture of the common races, either! Some basics, however, are as follows:
Orcs- I use the half-orc stats sans the Charisma penalty, call them full orcs, and they are a common race. Their culture certainly tends towards evil, even moreso than elven or dwarven culture tends towards good (which isn't as strongly in my homebrew as other settings seem to imply). But elves and dwarves and halflings and humans can be good or evil, and the same is true with orcs. There are enough exceptions that simply attacking members of the race on sight is not the norm (at least amongst humans; it's a different story with dwarves).
Elves- There are light elves and dark elves, and the latter are not drow. There are no other elven subraces, and the druidic/fey connection has been folded over to gnomes to help distinguish them from halflings. Elves are arcanists first and foremosts, graceful swords(wo)men and archers second (though they are still reknown for those latter skills; I just wanted to untangle some of the mess that was the elven race). All elven society is matriarchal, not just dark elves, though light elven society is mostly an egalitarian one in practice.
Gnomes- Fey spirits which chose to permanently become part of the mortal world rather than remaining in Faerie, gnomes are not technological at all; rather, they are the most nature-bound race in my setting (Lini the Pathfinder iconic is actually pretty close to my idea of gnomes, at least visually).
Goblinoids- Created by the dark elves thousands of years ago in the first war which sundered the elven kindreds, the hobgoblins were the first and greatest of goblin kind and were bred from the stock of captured light elves. They now exist largely as a militaristic mercenary race: where there are hobgoblins, there will soon be war. (They're the Stormtroopers of my world) Bugbears, in turn, were created from captured dwarves some time later. They were more resistant to the processes, and escaped to live clannish existences in the mountains (they're one of the few races I leave primarily as cave-dwellers). Gnomes came last of all, and were turned into goblins; but this last and least of the goblin races bred so much faster than all the others it became the most widespread and common. They are sneaky and smart and very evil.
Ogres- The inbred descendants of the once-mighty empires of the giants, ogres are nevertheless a feared race, known for selling their massive swordarms for treasure. They live in the ruins of the ancient past, in titanic halls once glorious and now ruined. They retain a good deal of the lore of metal-working, however. Though far from the fine craft of elves and dwarves, an ogre's armor is still dreadful for its thickness, and ogre weapons daunt foes with their size.
I really love using humanoids even into the later levels. I think that it goes a long way to help balance the game, as tactics that otherwise disappear after the low levels ramain relevant (tripping is easier against humanoids, which are almost universally Small or Medium; sundering remains valid because they actually have to use manufactured rather than natural weapons; etc.). Using classed humanoids is also a great way to emphasize their importance in the world and continue to showcase their cultures and demonstrate their importance and effect on both history and modern events within the setting.
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Gnomes- Fey spirits which chose to permanently become part of the mortal world rather than remaining in Faerie, gnomes are not technological at all; rather, they are the most nature-bound race in my setting (Lini the Pathfinder iconic is actually pretty close to my idea of gnomes, at least visually).
I am so stealing this for Tegara. You have been informed!
In my campaign we got rid of orcs all together as they were just too cliche. There is a constant war going on between the high elves (Evil elemental wizards who are led by vampires and are obsessed with beauty) and hobgoblins (a fairly advanced military race and have replaced orcs) versus wood elves (Tolkien version; race for elven players) and halflings (crazy lion riding bushman rangers). The dwarves come in two types: mountain (fairly standard dwarves) or plains (merchant-clerics of Anu the Sky God who travel everywhere). The gnomes have almost completely removed themselves from society, going into giant cave cities under a tundra, where they are very high tech and magic and are run by dragons. To the north of the main human kingdoms, there are more humans who had a giant ecological disaster (kind of like the dust bowl) and were left for dead by the other kingdoms. A ton of druids came in and started to fix the environment and the people were so in debt, they converted to the druidic religion. The gods in my world are Babylonian, Egyptian, and Hindi.
My settings tend to be pretty integrated. The following is some brief descriptions of the social roles of various humanoid races in my settings.
dwarves
elves
gnomes
halflings
orcs
goblins
hobgoblins
kobolds
bugbears
gnolls
lizardfolk
troglodytes
Gnomes- Fey spirits which chose to permanently become part of the mortal world rather than remaining in Faerie, gnomes are not technological at all; rather, they are the most nature-bound race in my setting (Lini the Pathfinder iconic is actually pretty close to my idea of gnomes, at least visually).I am so stealing this for Tegara. You have been informed!
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Kenku remind me of the kif from C.J. Cherryh's "Chanur" series. So, AWESOME!!!
I've been using lots of gnolls, yuan-ti, and rakshasa in my Crater Sea campaign (mostly because an asteroid wiped out the orcs, goblins, trolls, ogres, etc. when it crashed into the earth and made a new ocean--the Crater Sea). I've also been using Shifters as weaker versions of yuan-ti and rakshasas. The kuo-toa and suhaguin haven't made as much of an impact as I would have liked.
I like your shifter idear.
I always thought that rakshasas deserve more than they got.
I always thought that rakshasas deserve more than they got.
Have you read Escape from Old Korvosa in the Curse of the Crimson Throne Pathfinder AP? If not, I highly recommend it based on this comment!
I always thought that rakshasas deserve more than they got.Have you read Escape from Old Korvosa in the Curse of the Crimson Throne Pathfinder AP? If not, I highly recommend it based on this comment!
I'll check it out. I got the first 4 issues of the pathfinder adventure path but that was it. If I may recommend a book to you, I'd recommend Zobeck. That little book is great especially the kobold ghetto.
~Reads the lots of good stuff here~ Good job everyone!
quick Question am I the only one who thought the world was so over populated that um it lost any reality to it?
Pretty much. Given our world currently supports over 6 billion (is it closer to 7 billion now?) people and can support even more still, I think there is enough space on a typical game world to support plenty of different races. Especially given many of the races might not overlap in the areas where they reside. Your typical dwarves live underground which doesn't put pressure on your humans. Your typical elves live in heavily forested areas, again no overlap (until the humans decide to expand into that is). Also given the number of races, the population is kept in relative check by the fact that they are always killing each other, even if just in skirmishes. No one race can gain the upper hand and kill the rest off.
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quick Question am I the only one who thought the world was so over populated that um it lost any reality to it?Pretty much. Given our world currently supports over 6 billion (is it closer to 7 billion now?) people and can support even more still, I think there is enough space on a typical game world to support plenty of different races. Especially given many of the races might not overlap in the areas where they reside. Your typical dwarves live underground which doesn't put pressure on your humans. Your typical elves live in heavily forested areas, again no overlap (until the humans decide to expand into that is). Also given the number of races, the population is kept in relative check by the fact that they are always killing each other, even if just in skirmishes. No one race can gain the upper hand and kill the rest off.
In most game worlds though that is exactly what is happening, one race is or is trying to be dominant.
In most game worlds though that is exactly what is happening, one race is or is trying to be dominant.quick Question am I the only one who thought the world was so over populated that um it lost any reality to it?Pretty much. Given our world currently supports over 6 billion (is it closer to 7 billion now?) people and can support even more still, I think there is enough space on a typical game world to support plenty of different races. Especially given many of the races might not overlap in the areas where they reside. Your typical dwarves live underground which doesn't put pressure on your humans. Your typical elves live in heavily forested areas, again no overlap (until the humans decide to expand into that is). Also given the number of races, the population is kept in relative check by the fact that they are always killing each other, even if just in skirmishes. No one race can gain the upper hand and kill the rest off.
Right, "trying". As soon as one starts to get too much power, the others will unite against it. Humans get too powerful and suddenly you have orcs, dwarves, elves, and hobgoblins attack them. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."
EDIT: Perhaps a more likely outcome would be various races joining together to eradicate a specific other race. The problem there is that evil races won't be able to work together well enough to actually be successful enough (maybe destroy/overthrow a nation but not world wide eradication) due to different selfish interests ("I want to kill the dwarves!" "No the elves!" "I really hate gnomes, what about the gnomes!"). Good races would view eradication of other races as something that is intolerable and thus wouldn't do it in the first place and would probably try to prevent it ("What happened to the rest of the orc tribe?" "They disappeared into the woods ruled by the elves. When we tried to follow and kill the escaping females and orclings our men were killed by hidden elven archers. They are giving them sanctuary.").
I don't know. The whole alignment mechanic is a bit iffy to me. People always argue that there are some good goblins and some evil elves, but you never see or hear about them. Also, the humans and elves and other PHB races have the best lands while the humanoids who, on the whole are stronger than the average human, are given the horrible lands. Every time a group encroaches into "civilized" lands, they are immediately butchered without any negotiation. Therefore, are the good races actually evil?
I think it boils down to outsiders and gods who are paragons of their alignment. Without them, there would be no role models to follow and no one-sided figures to immediately associate with. In a D&D world with no outsiders or gods, all races would be considered "evil".
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Gnomes- Fey spirits which chose to permanently become part of the mortal world rather than remaining in Faerie, gnomes are not technological at all; rather, they are the most nature-bound race in my setting (Lini the Pathfinder iconic is actually pretty close to my idea of gnomes, at least visually).I am so stealing this for Tegara. You have been informed!
When in doubt, burn it to the ground (my party's motto, patent pending)
Gnomes- Fey spirits which chose to permanently become part of the mortal world rather than remaining in Faerie, gnomes are not technological at all; rather, they are the most nature-bound race in my setting (Lini the Pathfinder iconic is actually pretty close to my idea of gnomes, at least visually).I am so stealing this for Tegara. You have been informed!
When in doubt, burn it to the ground (my party's motto, patent pending)
That patent better pend quickly! I know several other parties who live by that same motto. :)
Right, "trying". As soon as one starts to get too much power, the others will unite against it. Humans get too powerful and suddenly you have orcs, dwarves, elves, and hobgoblins attack them. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."
EDIT: Perhaps a more likely outcome would be various races joining together to eradicate a specific other race. The problem there is that evil races won't be able to work together well enough to actually be successful enough (maybe destroy/overthrow a nation but not world wide eradication) due to different selfish interests ("I want to kill the dwarves!" "No the elves!" "I really hate gnomes, what about the gnomes!"). Good races would view eradication of other races as something that is intolerable and thus wouldn't do it in the first place and would probably try to prevent it ("What happened to the rest of the orc tribe?" "They disappeared into the woods ruled by the elves. When we tried to follow and kill the escaping females and orclings our men were killed by hidden elven archers. They are giving them sanctuary.").
I know it's just a matter of preference, but I don't like that approach to (what I suppose can be called) world design. It just doesn't seem believable. IMO, it smacks of a band-aid excuse as to whythe game world is the way it is, entirely ignoring the problem of the poorly developed cultures and races.
If the world is designed well, then the races don't really overlap to such a degree that overpopulation becomes a problem, as you say. The problem is that the default world isn't designed well. You have dwarves in the mountains, elves in the forests, and humans everywhere else. That's fine between just these three races; but that last part about "humans everywhere else" will draw them almost by definition puts them in conflict with the scads of other races, mostly "evil/savage" races who have, for all their brutality, crap for culture and population relative to the humans, and thus crap in terms of real ability to resist the humans. Considering that, yes, the default is whenever one of the "common(/good)" races meet with the "evil/savage" races, there is bloodshed without negotiation and the humans almost always prevail, there is little reason that these "evil/savage" races should still exist. And I doubt, in a typical campaign world, the elves would really take to harboring fleeing orcs refugees. The races are too shallow in their depiction.
Further compounding the problem is the "neanderthal" approach which I despise so much. The typical setting seems to assume that most of the races not in the PHB are just squatting in squalid caverns, ignorantly waiting to get mowed down by adventurers. This just isn't feasible, it makes no sense, and it removes any real threat that those races pose. One of the reason's Pahtfinder's portrayal of goblins was so successful is because of how abused the race has been throughtout the history of the game. The entire species is considered little more than 1st level cannon-fodder. Nevermind they have the same Intelligence scores as average humans, humans who are smart enough to build towns and cities and roads and have arts and sciences and magic at their disposal. Nevermind that they can be leveled just as easily as, say, and elf or dwarf can. No one thinks of those races as weak, because they are continuously exposed to members of said races with class levels. Not so with the "evil/savage" races, who seem to be condemned to all be 1st level warriors. The only class-level-bearing exceptions are occasional odd-balls who are memorable precisely because they play with the standard perception that all members of these races are little more than chunks of XP, arranged without any thought to their racial identities. They are placed in whatever inconsistent and undeveloped fashion is most convenient for the adventurers who will kill them, and that's the end of it.
Not only is the portrayal of the individual races under developed and unrealistic, the put themselves into an overpopulation crises additional to the one they face with other races such as humans. How many of the "evil/savage" races are basically summed up as cave-dwelling brutes who raid border settlements for a living? (And, given that, how are we to distinguish them other than "this one has a wolf/hyena head!" or "this one has higher Dex than that one!" How superfluous do all the varieties of this become, and how quickly? Very, to each.) The problem here is that these Chaotic Evil races should be hacking each other up as quickly as the humans are hacking them up, making their continued existence a further oddity.
Consider also that this isn't happening over a space the size of our actual world which holds close to 7 billion human inhabitants, but rather over a landmass usually the size of a medium- to large-sized continent; and further that this isn't even equally distributed over all that area, but rather is considered to be playing out constantly in virtually every cave and swamp and backwoods hole that ever existed, and it strains credibility. Factor in further monsters which are supposed to live in these ecological zones, and it just gets worse.
Now, all that being said, I don't think the answer of the problem is to reduce the number of races (though I will mention that I absolutely loathe the introduction of new races, particularly player races, which are unheard of before their introduction but are supposed to have been present all along with a fully developed culture that happens to have had no impact on the larger world around it... I could go on). It is to increase the actual amount of cultural development and racial identity of the races. I have to applaued Paizo's progress in this area with Pathfinder heartily. Bravo! Races that actually make sense in the world around them, with ecologies that I can believe in!
This matter is also a major sticking point in my homebrew, as I previously mentioned. Most of my world design isn't in creating maps and kingdoms and organizations (though I do love that, too). It's in creating an array of cultures and racial identities that actually make sense to me, and integrating them into a sensible world history which I can stomach. I strive to make sure that the different races do occupy different niches and fill different roles (and this extends to the common races as well: elves have historical been a mess, and the halflings and gnomes are often indistinguishable and therefore one or the other is typically disparaged as unnecessary). Thus they avoid the direct competition that makes their existences such a paradox, and thus they have societies which one can believe exist even in a bloody world where they are constantly faced with eradication. It also adds variety and interest to the adventures I create, and the possibility for encountering the other races culturally rather than as a collection of various stats trying to mow you down.
Well, that's my overblown rant and ramble for the day. Hope it didn't come off tersely; it wasn't the intent.
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Gnomes- Fey spirits which chose to permanently become part of the mortal world rather than remaining in Faerie, gnomes are not technological at all; rather, they are the most nature-bound race in my setting (Lini the Pathfinder iconic is actually pretty close to my idea of gnomes, at least visually).I am so stealing this for Tegara. You have been informed!
When in doubt, burn it to the ground (my party's motto, patent pending)
That patent better pend quickly! I know several other parties who live by that same motto. :)
** spoiler omitted **
Precisely, after all, the attempt to set a canvas tent on fire is the precipitating event leading to the discovery of its indestructibility.
I don't know. The whole alignment mechanic is a bit iffy to me. People always argue that there are some good goblins and some evil elves, but you never see or hear about them.
Never seen evil elves (ignoring drow)? I've seen lots of evil elves in various modules, and evil dwarves, gnomes, and other "good" races. As for no good goblins, well I agree there, but I blame the fact that since Tolkien goblins have always been cannon fire and Drizzt for making the good guy going against his evil culture disgusting.
Also, the humans and elves and other PHB races have the best lands while the humanoids who, on the whole are stronger than the average human, are given the horrible lands.
Evil consumes itself, and chaotic evil is worse. Very rarely do chaotic evil groups get larger than the small community size just because they don't do well in organizations. To run a kingdom you need lots of buracracy, most CE people couldn't tolerate that. The only time this ever kind of happens is behind a powerful, charismatic leader who is followed due to his projected presense. But once that leader is gone, the groups fall back to squabbling.
Every time a group encroaches into "civilized" lands, they are immediately butchered without any negotiation. Therefore, are the good races actually evil?
I haven't seen that, but we might be working from different ideas of "encroached".
I know it's just a matter of preference, but ...
I don't think it is necessarily all about poorly described worlds, but the fact that you often only see a snap-shot of the worlds and the fact that you often are using a module. You may go to a cave, and there may be a tribe of [insert evil humanoids] there in order to be a challenge to the party. This gives the impression that this is how all members of that race live because it is the only experience you end up having. But that is an error because other groups living in areas where parties have no interest in going may live in very different ways, more "civilized" ways.
I have to applaued Paizo's progress in this area with Pathfinder heartily.
I find that comment strange given the rest of your rant. Paizo has made goblins, which you say are just as smart as humans, into psycho-clowns. Where is the believable culture? Frankly, I think Paizo has moved the bar back, not forward with believable "monster" cultures.
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Also, the humans and elves and other PHB races have the best lands while the humanoids who, on the whole are stronger than the average human, are given the horrible lands. Every time a group encroaches into "civilized" lands, they are immediately butchered without any negotiation.
One of the strengths of a 'points of light' style setting is that the vast majority of land *isn't* already owned by the 'civilized' races. Instead of shoving all of the 'humanoid' races into the badlands of Varisia or the Pomarj or squished off into Droam, while all of the good fertile and forested land is human or elven dominated, the human cities can only maintain order a stone's throw from their walls, and humanoid civilizations exist alongside them.
Kalamar, from what I've seen, probably does the most with humanoid kingdoms living alongside human/demihuman ones. The Scarred Lands setting also has a 'points of light' style feel, but doesn't have any specific humanoid kingdoms or civilizations (with the Asaatthi being something of an exception).
One part of me kind of hates all the different humanoids infesting the average game world, and I knee-jerk against 'newer' introductions like the Taer or Urds or Tasloi or Morlocks or Skum or whatever. Even some of the 'older' races, like the Locathah and Kuo-Toans, I can do without (Sahuagin off-shoots, with Sahuagin, Lizardfolk, Troglodytes and Yuan-Ti *all* being degenerate offshoots of a primordial Valossian / Asaatthi-like serpent-race that once dominated much of the world, with the aquatic Sahuagin/Deep Ones/etc. being the game worlds equivalent of comic-book Atlanteans, having escaped the destruction of their civilization by magically adapting to underwater-capable forms).
On the other hand, I really, really like Gnolls (particularly associated with hyenas and female-dominated), and have a fondness for a more unseelie fey-descended interpretation of Goblinoids (Goblins, Hobgoblins and Bugbears, being the unseelie equivalent of seelie fey-descended Gnomes, Elves and an unknown race. Perhaps there is no seelie equivalent to Bugbears...). Orcs have never really appealed to me much, and I keep them, Ogres, etc. as mindless brutes.
Kobolds vary from the ape-dog-men of earlier editions to the dragon-descended reptilians of current editions. I kind of like both alternatives, so I divide them into;
Kobolds, which are ape-dog-men who live underground, often run on all fours, hate the sunlight and are surprisingly skilled craftsmen (and, thus, are often enslaved by hobgoblins or orcs or whatever, who use them as smiths and laborers).
Wyrmkin, hatched in groups of four to six from unfertilized dragon eggs (which a female dragon lays yearly, in absence of a mate) and have the coloration of their 'mother,' to whom they are slavishly devoted. Sometimes 'mothers' die, and, much more commonly, wyrmkin are abandoned, so that the world also has 'wild' tribes of Wyrmkin, many of whom have not know the presence of a dragon for many generations, much to their despair.
So yeah, irony, given my dislike of the proliferation of humanoid races in the average world, I went and created two different types of Kobold... :)
I have to applaued Paizo's progress in this area with Pathfinder heartily.I find that comment strange given the rest of your rant. Paizo has made goblins, which you say are just as smart as humans, into psycho-clowns. Where is the believable culture? Frankly, I think Paizo has moved the bar back, not forward with believable "monster" cultures.
I suppose I don't mind it because intelligence doesn't necessarily have anything to do with sanity. Whereas previously goblins had been pathetic loosers, Pathfinder made them as lovable as they were terrifying. While crazed, they are still a forced to be reckoned with. Further, any culture is better than none. Thus my appreciation of Pathfinder goblins. To be fair, I do not portray them the same way in my setting; they are a far more serious race known for trickery and being lethal to those who drop their guard.
As for the "snapshot" description, I understand that's the way things are supposed to work. But there is never any explication or expansion or development on those races in their "off-screen" homes to help DMs build them into a compelling culture. Plus, I don't see similar trends with the other races. Not all goblins and hobgoblins are cave dwellers, just these? Then why don't I ever see some elves and gnomes living in caves, too? It's because their culture doesn't do that. Likewise, if the culture of orcs and gnolls isn't to live in caves, it's highly unlikely there would be so many found in caves.
The whole situation can be alleviated by minor changes. I make my goblins live in ruins. They don't have the strength to build substantial fortifications, considering this would also draw the attention and ire of nearby human cities and powers; but they can move into broken down castles and the like just as easily. Those have actual architecture and will serve a goblin tribe perfectly, with only minor refurbishing necessary. I just find it highly more likely that, given a cave or an abandoned building, the goblins will choose to live in the abandoned building. This also makes for a more interesting encounter locale, in my experience, and the minor change makes goblins seem more respectable and developed as a race.
Likewise, my ogres live in the ruins of the ancient giant kingdoms. Rather than a bunch of 10-foot idiots who managed to find a cave big enough to house all of them (which only proves how little time most game designers have spent in caverns), they are the inbred remnants of a formerly glorious civilization of an epic physical scale. Again, the encounters are far more interesting and the ogre race becomes more compelling, with just a minor change.
I suppose I don't mind it because intelligence doesn't necessarily have anything to do with sanity.
Right, but Wisdom does (see creatures like the Derro for evidence) and goblins match up with humans there also. Frankly, like you, I see goblins as much more sneaky then rejects from the Insane-Clown-Posse. You want folk like that, use the derro.