Hey all been awhile…
Haven’t done much gaming lately, but recently someone begged me to play due to her not knowing the rules or character creation, plus being too embarrassed to get help from the group she’s going to play in.
Anyway, I wrote a character background and rolled up my character. I’m playing a barbarian, theme wise he’s a bastard child between Tarzan, Frank Frazetta, and Last of the Mohicans with an ultimate hunter attitude. This all adds up to the beast lord class in The Quintessential Barbarian which I really like, think normal barbarian with more of a Tarzan panache.
I was planning straight barbarian then beast lord to the end. Then someone suggest: “Why don’t you add ranger?” Valid I guess, hunter ranger could work point taken. Then someone suggested: “Why don’t you take fist of the forest PrC then go beast lord?” I’ve never heard of fist of the forest, and that would make me have 4 classes 2 base 2 PrC. This all irritated me due to the degree of laziness I wanted in my character: barbarian, beast barbarian, done.
This got me to thinking which lead me back the Paizo message boards then too Tequila’s thread (thanks Tequila). Assuming that multi-classing and prestige classes are just part of the game and will be there; where do you draw the line? 2 bases classes and 1 prestige class? 2 and 2? Unlimited? Theme appropriate? Generally how much multi-classing is too much in your game?
Nice to be back
Fizz
We have always been of the idea that you can take as many classes as you want or need to get the character you want
One prestige class(otherwise it loses the idea of being 'prestige' IMO); two bases classes (3 if no prestige class is in the cards). I apply the KISS principle to keep things easy to manage.
Remember, classes are just mechanical crutches to help you fulfill your character concept. If a single base class can do it, great! If you need 3 base classes plus 8 PrCs, fine! Just as long as you and everyone else at your table is having fun.
I DM for a guy who wanted to be the ultimate halfling knife fighter. He's a swashbuckler/rogue/invisible blade/master thrower/whisperknife, and he might take weapon master at some point. I DM for another guy who wants to be the best archer, and is sticking to ranger/scout. I DM for another girl who just likes animals, so she's a druid.
It takes all kinds to make a world.
Welcome back Fizzban! We have missed you!
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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We have always been of the idea that you can take as many classes as you want or need to get the character you want
I agree. It's your character and to get the character you want then it may be necessary to go the multi-multi-class route.
In saying this however, I feel that 4 Classes is pretty much what you should be looking at capping off at. If you can't get what you want done with 4 Classes then maybe it's getting a bit too complex.You need to look at your character. If you can achieve what you want with a single Class then what is the motivation to take another? If it is just for a specific ability, then ask yourself if that ability is crucial to the composition of the character and/or if it (or something similar) can be achieved with Feats or Skills.
On a personal note: I am a big fan of multi-classing. Most of my multi-classing is done from a Backstory driven theme. I do however have some that are driven purely from a Mechanical idea.
My percentage of single/multi is probably around 30/70. Look at my PbP characters in my Profile as an example.
EDIT: SmiloDan pretty much summed it up in less words and Ninja'd me to boot! =D
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I've never had the motivation to have more than 2 classes, maybe three if I had those first two to get into a PrC (eldritch knight, mystic theurge I'm looking at you), but for the most part I stick to a single class for the sheer power that most of them gain for going the distance. 10d6 sneak attack, 9th level spells, bardic knowledge for anything in the game, becoming an outsider and all of the other cool things monks get; I only really multiclass if I have a really off-the-wall character concept. I'm not necessarily against multi-multiclassing, but too much for munchkin purposes can get on my nerves.
I second what SmiloDan said.
How much muti-classing is too much?
For me, the answer would be roughly more than one class (or PrC) per every five character levels.
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If the consensus is that too many players are taking too many PrC, then maybe the problem lies with the nature of the individual PrC themselves?
If they're taken for one or two levels, then dropped like a hot potato, then maybe they're too front-loaded?
Conversely, the later levels could be seen as worthless? If a PrC only gives one ability deemed worth having, is a whole 10-level PrC justified?
Why (in-game-reality, not meta-rules) is Ability X only available to this PrC? What prevents ex-members teaching this to the general public, as an open feat? Exclusive powers are only justified if the founders of the class, patron deity, etc can keep a rigid grip on the source of that power.
Mage of the Arcane Order is a good example of this, having to undergo a ritual to bond to the Spellpool, which could be rescinded if the Order's rules are broken.
Anyone else see a parallel; Mage of the Arcane Order=Green Lantern?
LOL
most my games i don't allow excessive level dipping multiclassing needs to be RP based also no more then one PRC
IMO, it depends on the taste of the players and the DM.
I keep the number of classes low in my game, my PCs have two classes each, and one player is thinking about adding a third, a PrC. The two others have a base class and a PrC each, the one has two base classes. This is enough in my opinion. (one is a knight/knight of Holy Shielding 7/2, one is a cleric/radiant servant of Pelor 8/1, and the third ranger/fighter 1/8. The ranger/fighter follows an archer concept, which works very well - he causes tons of damage with his arrows, but is rather weak in melee.)
If you have a character concept that needs several classes to work properly, go for it. If you can do the same with just one class, why bother? I had a half-orc in one game that wanted to be an orcish war drummer, so he mixed barbarian and bard (roughly 3 to 2 over the course of the levels, we played up to level 10.). That concept worked very well.
If someone heaps class upon class, I would get suspicious if this is not just done because of some mechanic advantage gained. Mind you, the game needs players aware of gaining some mechanic advantages, but these should not become the sole reason for taking classes - this would make it powergaming in my book, which is not something I look for in roleplaying. It is fun to play a powerful character, surely, but it should be more than just a collection of numbers and cool feats.
IMO, PrCs should not be heaped upon one another endlessly, as they lose what makes them special or "prestigious" to begin with. IMC, the players had to wait for a certain set of circumstances before I allowed them to take a level in it (the knight had to be anointed into this specific knighthood and issued a letter of knighthood, the cleric had a special vision trip encountering a messenger of his deity).
BTW, does anyone use the xp penalty for multiclassing? In my games, it was no problem, as two classes don´t cause them anyway.
Stefan
For me personally, I rarely multi-class. I've only ever taken one character into a prestige class, and have no desire to multi-class with the current character I'm playing.
In campaigns I run, I generally don't restrict base classes, unless they simply don't make sense to take at a later level without some major plot relevance (a rogue taking levels of Paladin, something absurd like that). I do restrict Prestige classes, generally, to one per character. I personally try to encourage the players not to take prestige classes. It doesn't work, they do anyway, but I try.
I think it honestly comes down to the individual, then the group and that groups playing style.
Personally, I'm a big fan of the Illumian race from Races of Destiny...That being said, my current Epic Destiny Illumian has 7 different classes...
Wizard 3
Fighter 2
Duskblade 3
Abjurant Champion 5
Argent Savant 5
Eldritch Knight 2
Ultimate Magus 5
The campaign was all about Epic glory and cheese-ism, so the DM didnt mind. It also goes into my characters backgground that she is a wandering scholar, learning pieces of combat styles and magic form several different places, constantly learning, evolving...
Her Epic Destiny is that she as become the Harbinger of Journeys; a living force of the spirit of "the journey".
I'll admit this character looks munchkin as hell, but there really is a RP purpose behind it. In RL, my brain is constantly shooting 20 different directions, and I wanted a character that represented that, making a scatterbrained Martial Arcanist. She has glaring flaws, which can be easily exploited(base reflex of 4 for example...).
As long the career progression is objective and makes sense, i don't mind if a character takes 2, 3, 4 or more classes.
As long it's not munchkinism that's ok.
What i don't like is a player picking a class for only one level, so he can grab a single ability or bonus and on the next level abandon the class to switch to something else.
I tend to promote single classing for simplicity, offering many optional base classes and variants.
I agree, I took the fighter levels to represent her grounded martial training before moving into other classes like Duskblade, Abjurant Champion, etc. The bonus feats were helpful, but not the reasons I took the Ftr levels. In the end, they actually impair her spellcasting ability, so it's actually kinda anti-munchkin :)
My group had a pretty wide open policy on multi-classing. Pretty much if you qualify, you can take it. However, that has led to some pretty bent characters - specifically in the realm of Saving Throws.
One of the problems with multi-classing is that first level of anything has at least one Good save and since my group uses the fractional bonuses variant rule from Unearthed Arcana that amounts to +2-1/2 each time you dip into a new class. We have one player who loves the multi-classing, and he ended up with god-like save bonuses across the board because he dipped into six or seven different classes. They all fit thematically, and I don't think of him as a munchkin - he just really researches every choice that he makes for his PC.
Anyway, I'm DMing now, and after a few levels I noticed the same power creep. (a +9 reflex modifier at level 4 I think). I decided to institute two house rules. First, you only get the +2-1/2 bump the first time you get a Good save in the category - after that anytime you take a new class with a Good save you already have (say a Cleric taking a level of Fighter with the Good Fort save) you only get the +1/2 like any other level of a Good save in the fractional system.
The second thing I instituted was limiting PrCs to one 10 level PrC and one less than 10 level PrC (you could take two PrCs at less than 10 if you wanted). I never liked PrCs being treated like base classes with prerequisites. So far this has seemed to be a nice compromise. No one has taken a PrC yet, and our multi-classer is still having fun with crazy class combos.
I think the great thing about the 3.5 ruleset is it allows such variation. Depending on your group's likes and play style everyone could have 5 prestige classes or they could be as rare as hen's teeth. The real trick is keeping everyone in the group happy and keeping the power levels somewhat balanced.