Hey gang. We all know how RotJ ends, but I for one hate the freakin' Ewoks. An entire legion of the Empire's best troops can't defeat a bunch of primitive teddy bears? Come on. So, I'm trying to figure out a way to end the movie in such a way that characters in a campaign can take up the bulk of the responsibility for helping to defeat the Empire.
I like the idea of Han Solo dying in the battle. If the Empire defeats the Ewoks and Rebels on Endor then that would prevent the Rebel Fleet from destroying the good old Death Star, and most of the Fleet would be destroyed; potentially quelling the Rebellion.
Where I'm stuck is what to do with the Jedi/Sith. With his best friend dead, the Fleet being destroyed, and his sister potentially captured by the Empire, what would Luke do? Does he give in to his anger, kill Vader, and take his place by the Emperor's side? Does he help Vader kill the Emperor so they can rule the galaxy as father and son? Could that lead then, to Leia being the last hope of the Jedi?
I've read the Infinities comics, but they don't really help out here. I'm also not a fan of the majority of post-RotJ books and whatnot, so I don't care about affecting any of that stuff. Any help here would be greatly appreciated.
Help me Paizonians, you're my only hope.
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Where I'm stuck is what to do with the Jedi/Sith. With his best friend dead, the Fleet being destroyed, and his sister potentially captured by the Empire, what would Luke do? Does he give in to his anger, kill Vader, and take his place by the Emperor's side? Does he help Vader kill the Emperor so they can rule the galaxy as father and son? Could that lead then, to Leia being the last hope of the Jedi?
Without going into a whole alternate ending, I think that the Jedi stuff on board the Death Star would play out pretty much the same regardless of who wins on Endor. When the throne room scene played out, they had no idea that the rebels had managed to take out the shield generator, and as far as they knew the rebel fleet was in the process of being wiped out.
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My vote:
Leia, Chewie and the droids gets captured and when Han goes to "surrender", he ignites the bomb that he placed in front of himself to take out some of the Stormtroopers.
Leia and company then break in and take out the shield.
But I agree with Pulp, I think the Throne Room scene plays out like normal.
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Luke would indeed turn to the dark side and strike down the Emperor, but he would first strike down Darth Vader to get to him. I don't think Han dies, he, Leia, Chewie and the droids manage to escape and get off of Endor after Luke orders the Imperial forces to stand down. The Rebels are captured, except for Lando and the small group on Endor. R2-D2 leads them to Dagobath where Leia finds clues to the existance of another surviving Jedi master (take your pick, but I know who I would use.) Luke, who is tainted by the Dark Side, but has not yet fallen completely, starts to reform the empire into a less harsh, but no less authoritarian, government. For example, instead of destroying rebellious planets, he sends one of his Hands to either assassinate or "convince" the leadership to to the line. I haven't had tiome to develop a coherent idea yet, but just some thought off the top of my head.
Great stuff, guys. I prefer, however, if one of the Sith actually makes it out alive.
David, what Jedi would you use?
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Great stuff, guys. I prefer, however, if one of the Sith actually makes it out alive.
David, what Jedi would you use?
Well I would use Mace Windu, sure he gets his hand cut off and is flung out a window, but do we ever see him die? For all we know there was a parked speeder just outside that was wondering what was going on, and Mace commendeered it when he landed on top of it. I know from a friend at Lucasfilms that George left his death open ended like that in case he does decide to use Mace Windu again. If you don't want to use Windu, Quinlon Vos is known to have survived Order 66 and helped Han Solo out on at least one occasion.
Edit: I have also considered that the ultimate irony would be to have the other Jedi Master be a clone of Anakin Skywalker. Maybe the Emperor had one made just in case Vader's life support suit failed and then as he was dying Vader sensed the familiar form and transfered his essence into the body. Then his daughter comes along and saves him and they both set out to turn Luke back from the Dark Side.
...Well I would use Mace Windu, sure he gets his hand cut off and is flung out a window, but do we ever see him die? For all we know there was a parked speeder just outside that was wondering what was going on, and Mace commendeered it when he landed on top of it...
Hah! I had this discussion last night when we were playing some Saga Edition. I mentioned that I might run an Empire era game at some point, and commented that he could possible take the place of an Obi-Wan type mentor to a jedi in the group. I argued that there could have been like a flatbed full of pillows below him or something...
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What? It could happen.
I don't even think it's all that farfetched, really. If Anakin and Obi-Wan can avoid death while plummeting toward the surface of Coruscant, Windu should be able to do it also, even if he was just electrocuted and had his arm cut off. He is a Jedi Master after all, and he probably had quite a long fall to regain his bearings.
EDIT: Ah, I see you meant the pillow cart thing. Well, if Anakin can destroy the entire droid army on Naboo by accident, anything is possible.
I see your problem. You have forgotten the Rule of Cool: If something is really awesome, allow it and ignore that pesky thing called 'logic'.
Primitive Teddy Bears pwning a small, well-organized group of high-tech warriors is awesome. Thus, it is allowed. :D
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I see your problem. You have forgotten the Rule of Cool: If something is really awesome, allow it and ignore that pesky thing called 'logic'.
Primitive Teddy Bears pwning a small, well-organized group of high-tech warriors is awesome. Thus, it is allowed. :D
See, here's the problem: had the "Primitive Teddy Bears" come out when I was, say, seven (in '77...) I would have probably liked them. Problem is, they came out in '83, after a very dark, moody middle episode. At 13, rabid Teddy Ruxpin clones were the last thing on my "cool" list. My eight year old (at the time) sister thought they were cute, though, if that makes you feel better ;)
So, basically, I get two and a half movies of "cool", and three and a half movies of "not so much", cool wise...
had the "Primitive Teddy Bears" come out when I was, say, seven I would have probably liked them
The movie came out when I was six and I loved the Ewoks, but they stopped being cool for me when I started becoming fascinated by the Dark Side. I can suspend my disbelief and let the Empire lose, but I think it would be cooler if the Empire wins. ESB is my favorite of the movies, and I would love to carry that mood into the beginning of the campaign. I want the known galactic heroes to fail, paving the way for the players to fill their roles.
Actually, here is the alternate ending!
Awesome!
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The big problem with Ewoks is they nullify the value of stormtrooper armor entirely.
We already know from the first couple of movies that it doesn't stop blaster fire. One would hope that it could stop arrows fired from non-composite shortbows...alas.
It might nullify a few hits from a non-composite short bow, but most armor, no matter how well made, is proof from blunt force trauma like a sling bullet, a club, or a rock dropped from a hang glider. Any football players out there could confirm that no matter how well padded you are, if you take enough hits, you wake up the day after the game feeling like a Mack truck ran you down.
Edit: plus the Ewoks were more of a convenient distration. The tide didn't really turn until Chewie commendeered an AT-ST.
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I argued that there could have been like a flatbed full of pillows below him or something...You don't even have to go that far, as precedence/plausability for falling a long distance on Coruscant then hitching a ride on a passing vehicle was already set in Episode II.
Jedi can levitate x-wing fighters with their minds.
Why can't they levitate their boots?
In one of the Star Wars novels, Luke leviates (but does not fly). One of the onlookers speculates that that may be the origin of the Skywalker surname.
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In one of the Star Wars novels, Luke leviates (but does not fly). One of the onlookers speculates that that may be the origin of the Skywalker surname.
In one of the comics covering the Jedi of the first republic a Jedi Family called Cloudrider is mentioned in ancient Jedi Records (pre first Republic). I think they are the line that becomes Skywalker.
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Umm, for sure this way.
Luke takes down Vader but not quite killing him (Vader is breathing heavy but dying). The Emperor then goes into passive mode making Luke feel guilty about nearly killing his father. He tempts Luke with the promise of knowing his real father as he was before he became what he is. He tells Luke about the love his father and mother shared and how the Jedi used that to get to Anakin (and prevent him from saving her life).
Overall, he plays himself weak and benevolent as he did when he won over Anakin. He puts Obi-Wan squarely responsible for all the misery Luke's family had endured. He describes Luke's mother vividly and the honor it was to serve Naboo.
That is the Palpatine I would have created for the throne room. He is a weaver of confusion using mostly truths and half formed possibilities that will never happen. He is a roleplayer that doesn't want to show his real colors, especially when he sees something he wants real bad.
I never bought into Luke going to the Dark Side with such blatant arrogance and "cut and dry" evil or die. Sith are more clever than that at recruiting prospects, especially one that is so valueable. Palpatine is a cultivator in my opinion.
As for Endor, would it have been better if they found a Rancor breeding facility that had gone amuck (Jurassic Park style) and lead the things to the Imperial Base?
I am not sure what to say about Ewoks. Lucas plays to the crowds mostly, and you could have heard it quite well back in 1983. The Emoks worked well in the film and everyone thought it great entertainment. By today's standards it runs pretty thin, but at that time it was fairly solid. I hate to say it, but ideas that were original always seem to have a bit of familiarity that keeps everyone in the "feeling good" mindset. These ideas get used over and over in hollywood when they are bankable. In the end, people get too much of it and it begins to look very cliche and tired. The Ewok scenes were very original. If you saw Stargate or Gremlins you begin to get a sense of aspects of the Ewoks being used again in some form. If you saw Gremlins or Stargate first, then you would see the Ewoks as very cliche, when in fact it was those films that took the Ewok thing and used it.
So, sorry you found the Ewok's terrible. They were actually pretty cool when they were seen back in 1983. The problem with that third film was the throne room (IMO). I was not convinced by the Emperor's tactics. If one had watched the film Excalibur and took notes, Morgan Le Fey would have been a better canidate for tempting Knights to turn to the "Dark Side".
The drama that could have been will never unfold. Palpatine was an arrogant idiot.
If you want to know how this scene ends with my Palpatine, here it is....
Troubled by the emperor and the web of truths and the questions that have been planted into his mind, Luke comes to feel that he has turned (or has been turned) on what may be his real family. Feeling uncertain of either side, Luke asks more from the Emperor about his mother. Palpatine recants what truth he knows and Luke is horrified that Obi-Wan had used both his mother and father's love against each other (as Palpatine would put it). Palpatine shows Luke a holocron of his mother and father together and tells Luke that the Holocron is his father's and he watches it everyday. Palpatine then tries to help Vader up, but before he can measure the grief of Luke (and what power he has over him), he is struck down in cold blood. Well, not quite in cold blood. Palpatine get's a little carried away in describing his plans for Luke and it rubs him the wrong way. Luke takes his dying father out of Palpatine's chamber. Vader dies in the hanger giving Luke all his Holocron knowledge as well as recordings of the life he led before turning to the darkside. Luke is left to discover his own truths. I would end it a lot less "cut and dry" and leave it a lot more ambiguous.
Thanks for the original post!
Cheers,
Zuxius
About the Ewoks ...
I heard somewhere that Lucas' original idea was to use Wookies from planet Kashyyk (spelling?), like where we saw Yoda in "Revenge of the Sith" (or was that "Attack the Clones"?). That would have been a bit more impressive, considering their strength and presumably some familiarity with technology. Plus, I suspect that they have a chip against the Empire on their collective shoulder.
Unfortunately, "cute" was in, and Wookies became transformed into Ewoks.
So how about using the Wookies again?
So how about using the Wookies again?
I like the idea, but my original plan was to have the Empire win the Battle of Endor. I think the wookiees might have a chance of actually beating the stormtroopers.
Chub chub!
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Umm, for sure this way.
Luke takes down Vader but not quite killing him (Vader is breathing heavy but dying). The Emperor then goes into passive mode making Luke feel guilty about nearly killing his father. He tempts Luke with the promise of knowing his real father as he was before he became what he is. He tells Luke about the love his father and mother shared and how the Jedi used that to get to Anakin (and prevent him from saving her life).
Overall, he plays himself weak and benevolent as he did when he won over Anakin. He puts Obi-Wan squarely responsible for all the misery Luke's family had endured. He describes Luke's mother vividly and the honor it was to serve Naboo.
That is the Palpatine I would have created for the throne room. He is a weaver of confusion using mostly truths and half formed possibilities that will never happen. He is a roleplayer that doesn't want to show his real colors, especially when he sees something he wants real bad.
I never bought into Luke going to the Dark Side with such blatant arrogance and "cut and dry" evil or die. Sith are more clever than that at recruiting prospects, especially one that is so valueable. Palpatine is a cultivator in my opinion.
As for Endor, would it have been better if they found a Rancor breeding facility that had gone amuck (Jurassic Park style) and lead the things to the Imperial Base?
I am not sure what to say about Ewoks. Lucas plays to the crowds mostly, and you could have heard it quite well back in 1983. The Emoks worked well in the film and everyone thought it great entertainment. By today's standards it runs pretty thin, but at that time it was fairly solid. I hate to say it, but ideas that were original always seem to have a bit of familiarity that keeps everyone in the "feeling good" mindset. These ideas get used over and over in hollywood when they are bankable. In the end, people get too much of it and it begins to look very cliche and tired. The Ewok scenes were very original. If you saw Stargate or...
That's a great call on the Emperor, The thing I actually like about the first 3 movies, is watching the Emperor play both sides of the conflict to manipulate them into EVERYTHING...And you're right, that's how the throne room scene in RotJ SHOULD have ended...
great call..
Overall, he plays himself weak and benevolent as he did when he won over Anakin. He puts Obi-Wan squarely responsible for all the misery Luke's family had endured. He describes Luke's mother vividly and the honor it was to serve Naboo.
LOVE it, great job.
Hn. I'm inclined to think that the scenario in the throne room plays out much the same regardless of who wins down on Endor. After all, playing the benevolent old man might work before you construct the galactic Empire that goes around killing peoples' families and blowing up planets, but not so much afterwards.
On the other hand, what if we set the point of divergence earlier on? Say, for instance that Luke dies (or is captured if you prefer) on Bespin. Things still play out much the same for most of the movie (though rescuing Han might be a tad more difficult without a jedi along), but when they reach Endor, not only are the stormtroopers waiting, so too is Vader, undistracted by his son. And while fuzzy teddybears might beat stormtroopers, they're unlikely to fare well against a sith lord.
I think opening a campaign caught up in the space battle would be very atmospheric, allowing realisation to dawn amongst the players that the shield isn't coming down, and sooner or later they'll have to cut and run. This leaves the Empire fully intact, with Palpatine and Vader still in control, and a mostly operational Death Star at their command. It also leaves the major players dead in the assault on the shield generator, allowing the PCs to take centre stage when the time comes.
You could always draw on the extended Star Wars universe for bit of info. Timothy Zahn's Thrawn trilogy had a short point that was quite and interesting explanation why the Death Star 2 was lost. Thrawn's observation was that the Palpatine was basically backing the Imperial forces with is own powers, especially during Endor battle. In extended universe cannon this actually does make sense.
After Palpatine is killed by a reawakened Anakin (Vader) the battle turns sharply. While this is a bit retroactive ;p , you can see it in the movie. Most of the key turning points came after his death. The chewbacca getting his hands on a scout walker, subsequent loss of the shield generator to a trick. The destruction of the SSD Executor, and the tie fighter pilots inability to defend the power core.
I mean really, why did that troop open the scout walkers hatch... seriously. Why didn't any ground troops report a rogue walker? If they had the ground commander would have know that walker was compromised and he wouldn't have opened the doors. Clearly a loss of focus and coordination.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that if Palpatine had dragged out the banter with the 'Jedi' or had moved to take Luke prisoner again, after zapping him a bit he would have remained in control. The 'slips' wouldn't have happened and the rebels would have been crushed.... If not for the actions of your players' characters to alter the flow of the force. ;)
Without player intervention I'd see the Emperor alive, Vader alive (although question his allegiance), the rebel fleet decimated and in retreat, most of rebel ground troops dead or captured (includes Han and Chewy), Leia captured under the 'care' of the Vader (who doesn't reveal her force powers to the Emperor but my try to turn her himself).
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In Infinities: Return of the Jedi the Emperor escapes the destruction of the Death Star, but Darth Vader is redeemed and becomes Anakin again. Then he and Luke set out to hunt down the Emperor, with Vader now clothed in a white suit of life support armor. There is a picture on the linked page.